For guitar nuts like me...(boring thread)

[Scon]

This is just about where Damien is heading in terms of his live playing.
You might have known Damien has been using a Line6 DL4 for quite some time, but used it very subtley. If any of you have heard his recent performances you'll have noticed he's started looping in 'Amie'. There's some artists out there who make looping a huge part of their performance (Howie Day, Joseph Arthur), so it'll be interesting to see how far Damien goes with this new style when he plays live.
I'm probably the only one who understands what the hell i'm talking about. Apologies<img border="0" src= "smileys/smiley2.gif">

[Scon]

Sorry, I meant to mention 'I Remember' aswell, he uses his second DL4 for vocals quite heavily aswell. He used to use it to build up his screaming, layering all the vocals ontop of eachother.. but he's really getting more into it now, stretching out the loop and using all that human beatbox stuff.
I've a bad feeling I'm gonna be talking to myself now, I'll be good dc;

[Gatsby]

i dont like that looping he does in i remember... its okay for about 5 minutes but after a while it really wrecks the head... i suppose its experimental and he is just trying new things tho

[Angela]

I don't like it either and I heard many people say the same thing. Also about his distortion mic.


Joe Arthur is cool, but what he does is part of the composition process. He builds loops where nothing existed in the first place. Damien mucks with songs most people seem to like for what they are.

[Scon]

I personally like the distortion mic, but can see why people wouldn't like the constant building of distorted vocals till it's just one giant fuzz.

Angela: That's precisely my point... Joseph Arthur and Howie Day both rely on the looping heavily to compose their songs live, whereas Damien used it very subtely, mainly just for those distorted vocal layering (that were just complained about).
What I'm saying is, he has started using the DL4 in a similar way to Mr. Arthur and Day, to lay out a track, play over it, in a way it would usually take 4 or 5 musicans to play at once. If you listen to any recent recordings of 'Amie' there's quite a long outro to it where he'll lay down a very basic picking pattern, loop it, then play more ontop of it in a very similar fashion to the above mentioned.
He had never used the dl4's for this before so I'm finding it interesting to see if he'll develop that style or leave it because I'm big fans of Jospeh and Howie. That said, I wouldn't want Damien to turn into either... he's got a good thing going with his own style.

[Angela]

Ah, ok, I get what you are saying. I don't think I have a recent Amie track. The El Rey show from 30.5. or thereabouts is the last bootleg I have, Is he doing it on that one, do you know? I only listened to it twice so far and focused on other things.


Well, maybe that is actually the weird thing I don't like, that he's doing this stuff in the *outro*! To me it makes the song morph into something that it isn't without serving any particular purpose. It doesn't make the song any *better*, does it?

[Scon]

You can hear it in Amie from the El Rey show, yep. Try listening at about 3:37 into the song. It's nothing too complicated, but quite a long loop and a definite change from what he used to use it for. Also, from the same show, if you listen to I Remember at about 6:17, you'll hear him looping his vocals. He pretty much always did that for this song, but never strayed from building up screams... he's now stretched out the loop and is addingon those beatbox sounds far more than before.
I just have a feeling he's been hearing more what other artists have been doing with the DL4 and is experimenting with it a little. I'm all for experimenting with his songs live and jamming them out (the 10 min long Volcano at the 12.7.02 show was fantastic), but I hope he doesn't get too caught up in the looping. I can just imagine his songs standing better without. That said, it's Damien so maybe he'll proove me wrong (c;

[Scon]

Oh and, about making a song better. It completely depends for me. Some songs by other artists have blown me away with some creative looping. Others it ruined. I can't see it helping any of Damien's songs though like I said.

[Angela]

Will listen to those tracks againlater, thanks!

[dyermaker73]

well i've never seen damien live, but if he's doing a lot of live performances solo, a dl4 certain could help change things up if used sparingly... or who knows maybe hecan totally add it to his performance, howie used to be just him and a guitar long ago he's slowly addedpedals to almost hiswhole live performance.and the man has it timed out to a science almost if you watch him closely he keeps time with his foot, haha it's almost like a choreographed dance with those things.... you know what would sound good, picture something like how howie did the life in rain cover, where he didn't loop through out the song he just made it so that the loops would fade in and out of the song and then he layered his vocals with it, it's beautiful, i can picture amie being performed like that to sub in for the strings part maybe?

[Scon]

He has Vyvienne on cello to do the string sections anyway so there's no problem with that :) I think Howie's cover of 'Life in Rain' was great yeh and I can completely see where you're coming from.

[Angela]

I just listened to those parts you pointed out again, Scon, and I think Laura brought up an important point about timing.


I don't think the Amie loop *adds* anything to the song and I also think it goes on for too long. But that's a bit of Damo's personality: he doesn't always know when to stop! (I can sympathize wholeheartedly with that one <img border="0" src= "smileys/smiley2.gif">)


The "I Remember" outro works better for me. It fits the song's second part and it's the end of the show just like the loop he does at "The Professor" in the Union Chapel video on his web site.


But then there's also fine line to keep between being experimental and being "perfect". It somehow suits Damien to not have everything perfectly timed, I think.

[dyermaker73]

<BLOCKQUOTE> Originally posted by Scon on 20July2003
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He has Vyvienne on cello to do the string sections anyway so there's no problem with that :) I think Howie's cover of 'Life in Rain' was great yeh and I can completely see where you're coming from.
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ahh ok well then it's covered haha, acoustic guitar and cello is beautiful togehter, have you ever heard matt nathanson and matt fish together, i love it! perhaps i should just stay out of the discussion till i actually see him live then make an opinion <img border="0" src= "smileys/smiley2.gif">

[Scon]

<BLOCKQUOTE> Originally posted by Angela on 20July2003
<HR>



I just listened to those parts you pointed out again, Scon, and I think Laura brought up an important point about timing.


I don't think the Amie loop *adds* anything to the song and I also think it goes on for too long. But that's a bit of Damo's personality: he doesn't always know when to stop! (I can sympathize wholeheartedly with that one <img border="0" src= "smileys/smiley2.gif">)



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I must addnever said it added anything to song, just was noticing how he has introduced it more live. But then again, I don't think it detracts. Personally I like (I'm a sucker for extending songs to the maximum live), though if he chooses to keep it I'd prefer he left it with the few songs he does at the moment. I agree with Laura (Howie has his timing down so well, and you need to with looping), so I guess my points aren't getting across too well :D Anyway, I'm almost ending up turning this into a debate and that's not what I wanted so I'll try steer clear of that (I'm a fence sitter and proud of it).
Laura, I could never really get into Matt Nathanson, he just doens't do it for me I'm afraid. I'll have a look for his stuff with Matt Fish though, it might chance my mind :) Since you haven't seenDamien live yet, you might want to try getting some shows before then? I know Jon has kindly uploading the 5.30.03 LAshow at http://www.amidreaming.org/dreamers/showthread.php?s=&amp;threadid=24070 ("")
Very good aud taping so have a listen (c:</BLOCKQUOTE>

[Angela]

Hey, I know you didn't say it added anything. You originally just pointed out that he's using the pedal more! Hmmm....I thought the discussion was interesting. <img border="0" src= "smileys/smiley9.gif">I had never paid that much attention to his use of pedals before.

[Scon]

Well it's good to know there's something understandable in my babble (c; That's all I was doing yep, and I thought it was interesting also.

[Mario]

At the second Philly gig in May, he played a very extended Volcano outro, had to be atleast 5 mins long, with guitar and vocal loops on the Line 6. Some people were covering their ears, it was very "dirty" sounding, I thought it was excellent.


I really like Damien's looping, but I also love the DL4, so maybe Im biased.


By the by, don't forget about Tim Reynolds on the DL4, he inspired Joseph Arthur, and Arthur inspired Howie Day.

[Scon]

I'm a devoted DL4 fan thanks to Howie Day yep. (though pretty much every band uses them these days in some small way it seems). I'm a big fan of Tim Reynolds too, love his stuff. It's well known that Howie's looping was influenced by Arthur, but never heard of Joe being influenced by Tim. Interesting, I'll look into that (c:

Damien played a great 10 minute long Volcano at the 12.7.02 show, though nothing too dirty sounding. Just jamming out the song and it worked fantastically.

[daol20]

I'm a huge music fan, but your all making me feel like i havent a clue. I dont play any instrument although i've been promising to take up the guitar for ages.

[Scon]

Sorry, should explain:
A 'DL4' is a 'pedal' (one of those things which a guitar plugs through before going to the amp) that has 2 main features:

Delay - creating a range of echoes and repeats.
&amp;
Looping - The DL4 can record what is being played up to 14 seconds long, then repeat it over whilst recordingon top of what was just recorded.
Using Howie Day as an example... He would hit record and beat his guitar to get some percussion going, press again to end the recording and thus start playing back what was just recorded. What he plays now will record on top of that, giving the effect of more than one musician playing, though you have to build it up as you can imagine.
If you're a Frames fan and bought 'Setlist', you can hear Glen using a DL4 during 'Santa Maria'. The start of the song is him setting it up by recording some stuff straight from his guitar then reversing it. He leaves it off for the whole song until the main bridge where he plays it as he plays over it. You wouldn't notice these things listening casually but I'm just weird like that dc;

[daol20]

Cheers 'Scon' checking out 'Santa Maria' now to see. Like you said, i'd never notice that normally. I'll be listening from now on thought!!

[Scon]

No probs (c: You're probably safer not noticing things like that though dc;
Btw,I should point out that it's only on the live version of the song from 'Setlist' that you'll notice and you can only hearing him setting up the DL4 at the end of the track before it (because the tracks run into eachother). I was hoping you had a copy of Setlist because you won't get to hear it from a downloaded mp3 unless you play the 2 tracks back to back without a gap.

If you really want to understand the looping side of a DL4, go download some live (I emphasise they have to be live) tracks by Howie Day...'Sorry So Sorry' and 'Ghost'. It's just one man and his acoustic guitar doing everything. You'll hear it in Joseph Arthur and Tim Reynolds live stuff too though it's not as obvious as Howie's. Mundy (who I'm sure you're familar with) uses one too. If you've seen him play 'July' live, he'll usually tap some beats out on his guitar and loop them before playing.

[daol20]

Yeah, i've gotSet List, thats the one is was talking about.



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[FredDaNinjaPunk]

Thanks a million Scon for the explanation(and also Daol for askin!!) I play a bit of guitar but I'm strictly a "strum and hum" kinda guy. Actually, now that I'm here, besides 'Cannonball' which I can give a good stab at, what other Damien Rice/Mundy/Frames, etc... are easy to pick up?

[Angela]

Thanks for pointing out "Santa Maria" - I will have to give that a special listen. (I love learning stuff like that - it adds yet another dimension to the listening pleasure <img border="0" src= "smileys/smiley14.gif">.)

[Scon]

Fred, most Frames stuff is very easy to play... in terms of Damien, I find Blower's Daughter, Eskimo and Volcano quite easy to play (I've yet to try the rest). The tabs/chordson this site aren't too accurate though (in most cases) so I'm going to have a go at tabbing them out a bit better.

[daol20]

Scon, you seem to know your stuff about guitars. Ive been planning on taking up playing for a while. Any suggestsions about how much to spend and what make acoustic guitar? or where to buy one?


A mate of mine plays and says your better off staying away from getting lessons and teaching yourself. What do you reckon?

[Scon]

Well I wouldn't say that, but I definitely have an interest in them yes (c: If you're beginning, never spend a large amount. I've seen people loose interest and wish they hadn't spent such a large amount. So my advice in that respect is, buy a cheap guitar to begin with... it means there's no risk. It also means it'll be more difficult to play, which will help you learn (when you play a better guitar you'll find it much easier to play songs after slogging on your old one).
For acoustics, Epiphone make some good cheap ones, though not all them are great. I'm not a fan of them personally.The best advice anyone could give is to play them all. You'll find one will 'click' with you and you'll know it's the right one, though it might take a lot of searching. Iwasn'tlooking for any certain brand and bought a relatively unknown one, 'Crafter'.When buying a cheap guitar, don't be as worried about the sound, you really won't find one with great sound at such a cheap price. Think of this guitar as your test model that you'll learn on. When you progress enough and go to buy a new one in the future, that's when you can start worrying about sound quality.
Try the 4 main guitar shops around Wicklow and Georges Street. Perfect Pitch have the best rangeof acoustics definitely and that's where I got my first one.

What you're looking for is low 'action' (strings closer to the frets and much easier to hold down), a straight neck with no warping, and tight machineheads that won't keep slipping and detuning the guitar. Bring someone with you who has played a lot if you can.

That whole 'lessons' debate keeps going around in circles. There's no real answer. I find that teachers vary and this is why some are in favour and some not. I'm self-taught simply by buying a few books on theory and technique, though mainly from just learning tabs of any song I like. I set myself up with songs that are beyond my abilities to learn quicker instead of trying to learn those half-assed versions of songs that are just plain chords. I was just too enthusiastic about playing and didn't want somebody telling me what songs etc. to practice to it suited me. I did overstrain my hands playing before, and as a result I now have RSI which is pretty horrible. I may not have gotten it had I taken lessons, but I'll never know. Most people don't get it so it's just my bad luck really.

I think that's everything you asked? Let me know if you want something cleared up.

[Gatsby]

woah thats a big reply... ill try read it when ive better eyesight and not nursing a sore head

[daol20]

Cheers Scon! Good man. I'll let you know if i do!

[Johan]

Thumbs up for Crafter guitars!! Outstanding tone and a fair price...My first guitar was a crafter and I still love it. I also have a Martin dx1r wich im deeply inlove with...I always use my Martin for gigs etc, but when it comes to recording I find that my Crafter gets a much better tone.


So, good advice Scon!!<img border="0" src= "smileys/smiley1.gif">

[hannadanna]

i'm a big fan of howie day (got his album from amazon about a month ago) and i too noticed damien's experimentation with looping, beat box's etc.. well i mean i don't mind it, i think (and i think damo thinks aswell) it probably adds more depth to a song. damo himself never uses a defined setlist or running order of songs, and he's consistently changing songs to suit his current mood. i mean it would get pretty boring for him to play the exact same version of "the blowers daughter" or "i remember" or whatever,night after night for the better part of 3 years now, so using the pedal is a great way to keep things fresh and exciting.i mean, would you prefer a stale set with a rather lack lustre performance?? after all damo is a musician and with all musicians, we love to experiment :)

[daol20]

Scon, that guitar i said i'd bought, it was actually a 'Fender DG10' guitar. Havent had any time to spent learning any chords though, cos i've been working a poxy shift!

[Scon]

Johan: Thanks (c: I love my Crafter too.
Hannadanna: I find that most artists Ilike constantly revamp their songs live. I think it's a big turn-off if they play them the same as the album and/or never add to them.
Daol: Try not to get too addicted dc;