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Old 07-16-2004, 08:16 PM   #31
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Amnesty International's report on Burma (aka Myanmar) here


[img]smileys/smiley5.gif[/img]not a pretty story!
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Old 07-16-2004, 08:23 PM   #32
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I think Damien wanted to visit a refugee camp there. I'm sure he's very aware of the poictical situation on Burma.
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Old 07-16-2004, 10:58 PM   #33
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"I think Damien wanted to visit a refugee camp there. I'm sure he's very
aware of the poictical situation on Burma."

I thought he's always saying that he's not political. What's all this then?
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Old 07-16-2004, 11:15 PM   #34
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i think what angela was saying was he is most probably aware.....through reading papers and keeping up with current affairs and stuff....no one needs to be political to do that
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Old 07-16-2004, 11:56 PM   #35
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Thats what she was saying [img]smileys/smiley4.gif[/img]


Btw, if you make your way over to http://www.eskimofriends.com/default.aspyou can read the following news item, no doubt carefully placed there by Superpenguin Emmett BBC Radio 1 ...report ... that Damien has taken the summer off to travel around Asia, including a visit to a refugee camp in Burma.
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Old 07-16-2004, 11:59 PM   #36
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Angela...the fountain of all knowledge [img]smileys/smiley36.gif[/img][img]smileys/smiley32.gif[/img]
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Old 07-17-2004, 12:11 AM   #37
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jeez, i coulda just read that in the news section... thanks ange!
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Old 07-17-2004, 12:44 AM   #38
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Ever since those igloo meltdowns of lore I'm logging on through the news page first! Worthwhile, too, because there is so much news!
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Old 07-17-2004, 12:43 PM   #39
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My reasoning would be much the same as Rains.

Also I hate the heat and have no desire to see the world when I have a much more interesting time exploring my mind.
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Old 07-17-2004, 01:12 PM   #40
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do you need tickets for that, ian?
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Old 07-17-2004, 01:17 PM   #41
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yeah is it half or full board?? [img]smileys/smiley36.gif[/img]
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Old 07-22-2004, 04:29 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cillecille


Amnesty International's report on Burma (aka Myanmar) here


[img]smileys/smiley5.gif[/img]not a pretty story!


yeah i believe burma was using civilians as minesweepers last year.


oh and for all you dick cheney fans out there, when he was head of halliburton, he didnt have a problem with doing business with those scumbags either. went to congress to try to ease sanctions so they could make more money. nice guy our vice president, so concerned for the oppressed. [img]smileys/smiley29.gif[/img]


jason


From 1992 until the present, thousands of villagers in Burma have been forced to work on these pipelines and their related infrastructure, have lost their homes due to forced relocation, and have been raped, tortured, and killed by Burmese soldiers hired by the companies as security guards for the pipelines. Under Cheney, a joint venture of Halliburton and Saipem (Italy) laid the offshore portion of the Yadana pipeline. Halliburton's participation in these projects shows a callous disregard for the consequences of their business behavior.


http://www.earthrights.org/halliburton/rerelease.shtml
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Old 07-22-2004, 04:52 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banjaxed


Quote:
Originally Posted by #Ian#
Maybe its just me, but where Damien is at the moment...

sounds a bit sh*t.

i've been to that part of the world (altho not Burma) and had the best time of my life. went for 6 weeks, stayed for a year.


its strange, we, myself included, tend to think life wouldnt be worth living without all our fancy things, but ive done a bit of research into tribal people.....they are the happiest bunch out there. you find a tribal people without any of the tech wonders we possess and you dont find depression, drug addiction, and violence. certainly they arent idealic, they do get violent, im saying it isnt the problem that we have. there is definately good and bad to our comforts.


jason


Tribal life is not perfect, idyllic, noble, or wonderful, but wherever it's found intact, it's found to be working well--as well as the life of lizards, racoons, geese, or beetles--with the result that the members of the tribe are not generally enraged, rebellious, desperate, stressed-out borderline psychotics being torn apart by crime, hatred, and violence.


Beyond Civilization


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Old 07-22-2004, 05:10 PM   #44
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I'd argue that they are happy because they don't realise how much better it can be. Blissful ignorance. Its the race to get to the top that causes all the stress in the western world.
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Old 07-22-2004, 05:12 PM   #45
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"He who increases knowledge, increases sorrow"
The Bible
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Old 07-22-2004, 05:13 PM   #46
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"Life without Playstation 2 is not worth living."

Ian
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Old 07-22-2004, 05:16 PM   #47
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Old 07-22-2004, 05:19 PM   #48
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[img]smileys/smiley36.gif[/img] [img]smileys/smiley36.gif[/img] [img]smileys/smiley36.gif[/img]

I nearly wet myself!
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Old 07-22-2004, 05:32 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #Ian#
I'd argue that they are happy because they don't realise how much better it can be. Blissful ignorance. Its the race to get to the top that causes all the stress in the western world.

Ihave reservations about saying that they are blissfully ignorant. You're taking the knowledge of the western world for granted. I'll leave it at that, but I'll just add that the way the western world and the non-western one conceptualise ideas and whatnot are very different.


I have no idea what I'm blabbering about. Forgive me. [img]smileys/smiley9.gif[/img]


edited to correct gross grammatical errors.Edited by: Rain
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Old 07-22-2004, 06:55 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain


I have no idea what I'm blabbering about. Forgive me. [img]smileys/smiley9.gif[/img]


sounds like you have an inkling at least.....


there are a number of cultures that have went the way of civilization and ended up walking away from it and going back to a hunter-gatherer way of life. obviously, we cant do that as there are just way too many people now, but i do feel we have a great deal to learn from these cultures. some have been around for a hundred thousand years. the plains indians were in america for 30,000 yrs before the west wiped them out. rather than just assuming they just dont know what they are missing, i wonder if they know something we dont.


unfortunately, the perception is that these cultures are just dumb, backwards people without any useful knowledge to give us. perhaps the knowledge of how to live with others for 50,000 yrs and not destroy those others or themselves could be considered useful to us. but i think it wont be til too late.


by the way....when the nukes fall, and at some point they will whether a year or 50, guess who will survive? those backwards tribal people. not us. not only because they happen to live away from where the destruction will take place but that they are the only people on the planet that actually can survive as a people without technology. like i said, good and bad. our dependence wont be a good thing when we cant rely on it.


small disclaimer: i do not hate technology. nor civilization. i just feel that there are certain things that we do that does not work. and rather than admit something is wrong we try to fix things by plugging holes with programs and more money.


jason





We know that humans have tried other social organizations.


The Maya tried one--and found after three thousand years that it didn't work (at least not as well as tribalism). They returned to tribalism.


The Olmec tried one--and found after three hundred years that it didn't work (at least not as well as tribalism). They returned to tribalism.


The people of Teotihuacán tried one--and found after five hundred years that it didn't work (at least not as well as tribalism). They returned to tribalism.


Not one of their experiments survived--but tribalism did. And that's what natural selection is all about.


Beyond Civilization


Edited by: jayavo
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Old 07-23-2004, 10:19 AM   #51
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Perhaps I should not have said ignorance as despite the fact that in the purest definition of the word its acurrate it does have certain negative connotations, I should have said unaware.
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Old 07-23-2004, 10:33 AM   #52
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I'd say we're likely to be more ignorant of them than they are of us.
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Old 07-23-2004, 10:38 AM   #53
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The misanthrope in me would say that everyone is ignorant. The humanist in me would temper that statement by adding "to some degree" to that statement.
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Old 07-23-2004, 04:00 PM   #54
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Nietzsche would agree with the latter.
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Old 07-23-2004, 04:04 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #Ian#
The misanthrope in me would say that everyone is ignorant. The humanist in me would temper that statement by adding "to some degree" to that statement.

very well said. [img]smileys/smiley32.gif[/img] i hope you didnt take anything i said as antagonistic, it wasnt intended.


i personally feel that these cultures know something we dont. we can learn from them but instead we teach that these cultures are nothing but people who havent seen our way yet. of course, im only speaking of my own experience in america, i dont know what they say over onthe otherside of the ocean. but i grew up learning that the indians pretty much deserved their fate because they wouldnt change.they didnt understand. as if that is reason enough to wipe out a population of people. but i digress....


i believe in evolution. and evolution is just sorting out what works over time. a very long period of time. we've been here but a blink relatively speaking. these cultures have been around for , in some cases, a hundred thousand yrs. we at a young 10,000 have really been lucky that we havent destroyed ourselves. but its early. and can anyone honestly say we arent at least on the edge of that possibility at all times? not with the power of nukes that are on this planet. we got real lucky in '62 someone like bush wasnt in office during the cuban missile crisis. we got lucky in '67 and '73 that america had enough leverage over israel to push them not to use nukes during those wars. they did ready them. i think its only a matter of time. and that may sound pessimistic. it is. believe it or not im not though. things could still change. but not before peoples vision of things changes.


before the renaisance, do you think people thought, well one day i will not be forced to live as a slave on my lords land. i will be able to own my own. probably some, who were then told to shut up and that this is the way things are.


before slavery was wrong, it was right. there were likely many slaves saying, 'well, someday, im going to own a home like master.' 'im gonna be free'. to which another slave would probably say, shut up before master hears you. dont rock the boat. this is the way things are.


100 years ago it was pretty acceptable to hit your wife. look up the origin of 'rule of thumb'. women would cry to girlfriends, 'someday, ill be able to do just what he does. work. vote. anything.' to which the other women would giggle and say, shut up and take it. things could be worse. this is just the way things are.


i could go on.....but my point is that people didnt change. what changed was peoples vision. vision is so powerful. regular german folk during the nazi era were no different than the ones before and after hitler. the only difference was their vision. thats what hitler sold them . a vision of them being superior. just like we had when we encountered the indians. a vision of superiority that allowed otherwise normal 'wrongs' to be considered ok.


and that i feel is the difference between our global culture and these tribal cultures. vision. theirs allows them to coexist with the world without detroying it. and allows them to coexist with others without destroying them. theirs is one where they are a part of the earth and everything on it and ours is one of superiority. the earth was given to us by god to conquer and rule. and that has allowed otherwise normal wrongs to be ok.


so its early yet to see if we can survive to the age of these cultures. but they have survived for a reason. it works. yeah i know , we destroy them wherever we meet and evolution is the strong survives. but just because i have the power to destroy a spiders web, doesnt mean im more evolutionarily stable than spiders.


sorry, not much work today so i went on a bit looooooooooooong.


jason


We are part of the earth and the earth is part of us.


There is no quiet place in the white man’s cities, no place to hear the leaves of spring or the rustle of insects’ wings. Perhaps it is because I am a savage and do not understand, but the clatter only seems to insult the ears.


Like a man who has been dying for many days, a man in your city is numb to the stench.


We know that the white man does not understand our ways. One portion of the land is the same to him as the next, for he is a stranger who comes in the night and takes from the land whatever he needs. The earth is not his brother, but his enemy - and when he has conquered it, he moves on. He leaves his fathers' graves, and his children’s birthright is forgotten.


all qoutes attributed to chief seattle
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