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Old 05-08-2012, 04:16 AM   #301
mario_d
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Originally Posted by Lin@ View Post
How do you know what work they actually did for "Volcano"? I'm pretty confident that Damien doesn't credit them simply BECAUSE HE WROTE THE SONG BY HIMSELF. But that's obviously only because I put him on a pedestal.

Damien wrote all those songs all by himself and gave them the parts to play accompanying him?

Or did he wrote a chord progression and they each added to the song? Because that's how bands work.
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Old 05-08-2012, 04:49 AM   #302
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Is that how it works? I've never wanted to support a cause, gone looking for a compilation album, bought it, and then discovered it had interesting artists featured on it. I suppose artists could contribute simply for the publicity
Yes, that's exactly how it works.

It's a way to expand your audience because someone who likes Dave Matthews will listen to the album to hear Dave Matthews, and discover a new artist.

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It seems odd to complain about the unfinished album(s) that he hasn't followed through on in one way or the other, and in the next complain about the respectable number of tracks he's released on compilation records in the meantime?
Who's complaining? All I said was putting tracks on compilation albums isn't a reason to laud him as a great person.

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Do you like the music he has written/released in the past several years?
What music?


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Do you want to hear a new album at all
I'll listen to it but I'm not expecting much. He's chased away Tomo who's drumming is what I first loved about this music all the way back in the fall of 2002 when I first listened to it. And while live shows are better without Lisa, albums are not. He hasn't played with a band in over five years so I have no idea who would even play the other instruments on an album or a tour.


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Music credits are important, because the writers should be paid royalties. I don't know all of the facts. Was there some big dispute that I just never knew about?

Are there any indications that members of BellX1 were upset with how Damien credited his versions?

Could there be some agreement between Damien and BellX1 that we don't know about? If one party or the other had a problem with how it was done, I would expect that either they would not have been released or else there would have been lawsuits to modify the credits and sort things out.
You'll notice that 3 of the 4 were never released by Damien, just registered. (Face, Tongue, and WLaM). There isn't a lot of money at stake bevause Tongue was never sold, hence not worth a lawsuit.
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Old 05-08-2012, 04:52 AM   #303
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^um, yer right....lets see mario, "DEC 3, 1997, a song called Volcano" , here it is....now WHO WROTE VOLCANO???? y would Damien credit them, cuz they were in a band after damien wrote it and recorded it together? now I wonder if Bell X1 stole it from him, as they dont perform it live anymore , must be a reason, it wasnt written by them,,,and I remember in an nterview with Nic Harcut that they kinda agreed to share some songs, but dont remember the wording


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXcfIdTjSIk&feature=fvst
Did you even read your own link??
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Early Damien Rice - volcano- short bit rough walkman demo from besides..this was recorded when he was still with juniper and would be recorded with juniper
You literally posted a link to prove Damien wrote Volcano without Juniper, and it shows a "rough demo" of the song from when Damien was in Juniper. A song that would be more fully flushed out by the rest of Juniper.

Also, that track has piano on it. Wonder who's playing that? Someone from BellX1? Because the Juniper recording of Volcano is actually more piano than guitar.

Thanks for proving my point because I totally forgot about that recording.

Last edited by mario_d; 05-08-2012 at 04:58 AM.
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Old 05-08-2012, 04:59 AM   #304
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Since when does anybody need a license to act like an asshole?
When that somebody's sole source of income is convincing people he's not an asshole so they'll buy his music.


Et tu?
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Old 05-08-2012, 06:16 AM   #305
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Yes, that's exactly how it works.

It's a way to expand your audience because someone who likes Dave Matthews will listen to the album to hear Dave Matthews, and discover a new artist.
Yes, sometimes that happens and if we were talking about "Music for the Motion Picture ______" I'd agree with you. But these have been charity compilations for causes, and documentaries. Does that have any bearing on why artists would choose to participate? Still just trying to grow their fanbase 100% of the time? Or could they be trying to use their name and get their fans to think about or support a cause that they believe in?

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Who's complaining? All I said was putting tracks on compilation albums isn't a reason to laud him as a great person.
Sorry, that wasn't accurate. Not a complaint, you brushed it off as self-promotion without really acknowledging or appreciating that there was a new Damien Rice song being released. Complaint or brushing off, it doesn't change my point. When (or if) he releases a new album, there will be some publicity and you can just as easily write the whole thing off as more attention grabbing. That's why I'm curious what you thought of all those songs. Personally I was a little underwhelmed by most of them -- I'm guessing you feel the same way?

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You'll notice that 3 of the 4 were never released by Damien, just registered. (Face, Tongue, and WLaM). There isn't a lot of money at stake bevause Tongue was never sold, hence not worth a lawsuit.
I'll notice that you didn't answer any of my questions. Do you know any more about it than I do?

Woman Like a Man was released (live versions, still released commercially). Although the others that you mention weren't released, they've certainly been performed a lot and the songwriters would have been owed royalties for that as well. I also noticed that the following songs were recorded with Juniper: Amie, I Remember, Eskimo, Me My Yoke + I, Cross-Eyed Bear. Were these credited appropriately?
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Old 05-08-2012, 09:13 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by mario_d View Post
Damien wrote all those songs all by himself and gave them the parts to play accompanying him?

Or did he wrote a chord progression and they each added to the song? Because that's how bands work.
Every band works differently. Having said that, did Bell X1 credit Damien for all their songs that were originally Juniper songs? Eve, the Apple of my Eye? Beautiful Madness? Slowset? Offshore?
I highly doubt that.

So this is just one perfect example for how your "facts" have hardly any value in this discussion, because they can be interpreted in different ways. So just stop accusing us of putting him on a pedestal and therefore not seeing his faults, when it's actually you who lets your (negative) perception of Damien's persona influence how you interpret his behavior. You really come across as a 10year old who's been bitter about Damien ever since he refused oh so direspectfully to sign a piece of paper for you.
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Old 05-08-2012, 11:35 AM   #307
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Ooh come on mario, T-Lloyd didn't personally attack you it's called giving advice based on personal experience. don't go all: I DESERVE RESPECT when you knowingly go against EVERYONE'S opinion. frankly i might actually just take the advice. Because the only thing i am doing is explaining the 2nd side of all the stories you probably already know.

He fired lisa in an unprofessional and disrespectful way. And i should stop excusing it for something else?
No. It WAS everything you said it was except the fact that once again they were in a relationship... You really think ANYTHING between those 2 was professional? Relations between damien and the rest of the band were friendships/professional relationships... the relationship between lisa and damien was personal... and if you look at it that way, AGAIN i would've made the same call as damien did.

You can keep just going "it was unprofessional" but it wasn't even professional in the first place now please stop about this because you already know this and im just the one who keeps reading you dumb ass fact you already know.

He shouldn't have quit Juniper because there was a contract? and he should've just went along with the oppression of the producers. Well this is just bull****.... Have you ever been in a band were it just didn't work out? what do you do then. YOU LEAVE. Even if there is a ****ing contract.

He clearly didn't know that the producers asked to change so much before signing it. once again don't ignore these facts.

He signed it, THEN he didn't like the commercial direction anymore. while the other band members did. fine then you leave! that's the most human thing to do! They disagreed he shouldn't have played ball because then he would write stuff he didn't feel is true.

He didn't credit bellx1?
After looking around it's quite clear he wrote the songs... so why credit them? I just remembered the Volcano '97 demo. isn't that enough proof HE wrote it?

Please never ask me to "look at your fact" again, if you're just going to act like you don't know mine.
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:31 PM   #308
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Sorry, that wasn't accurate. Not a complaint, you brushed it off as self-promotion without really acknowledging or appreciating that there was a new Damien Rice song being released. Complaint or brushing off, it doesn't change my point. When (or if) he releases a new album, there will be some publicity and you can just as easily write the whole thing off as more attention grabbing. That's why I'm curious what you thought of all those songs. Personally I was a little underwhelmed by most of them -- I'm guessing you feel the same way?

Again, I don't know what songs you're talking about.


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I'll notice that you didn't answer any of my questions. Do you know any more about it than I do?
I know that he refuses to give them any credit whatsoever for songs that were developed while he was in Juniper, which they played on. Which is a really ****ty thing to do.


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Woman Like a Man was released (live versions, still released commercially). Although the others that you mention weren't released, they've certainly been performed a lot and the songwriters would have been owed royalties for that as well.
No, songwriters don't get paid for songs being performed live. Venues pay an annual fee to ASCAP that licenses all songs in the ASCAP catalog for performers in their venue to cover. I'm not sure if all songwriters get a check for about fifty cents per song every year as a result, or if it just goes to ASCAP operating costs. But its pretty insignificant money.

Songwriters only get a cut of album sales. The WLaM single did not generate a meaningful amount of revenue. Volcano is the only Damien recording that generated revenue. Damien continues to get paid, as he should from the BellX1 sales of albums with Tongue, Volcano and I think one other tune.

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I also noticed that the following songs were recorded with Juniper: Amie, I Remember, Eskimo, Me My Yoke + I, Cross-Eyed Bear. Were these credited appropriately?
There's a lot of stuff there, its pretty messy. But here's what we know. Damien registered songs in his name alone. BellX1 registered as their names and Damien, and released a few on albums. Damien didn't sue to get 100% of the royalties for songwriter on those tunes even though he's claimed to be sole songwriter.
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:42 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Lin@ View Post
Every band works differently. Having said that, did Bell X1 credit Damien for all their songs that were originally Juniper songs? Eve, the Apple of my Eye? Beautiful Madness? Slowset? Offshore?
I highly doubt that.
None of those appear to be registered.



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when it's actually you who lets your (negative) perception of Damien's persona influence how you interpret his behavior. You really come across as a 10year old who's been bitter about Damien ever since he refused oh so direspectfully to sign a piece of paper for you.
Wheels, here's another personal attack.

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Old 05-08-2012, 02:50 PM   #310
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Ooh come on mario, T-Lloyd didn't personally attack you
These are the rules Wheels reiterated:
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Its not my rule, but its what Wheels wants.


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He shouldn't have quit Juniper because there was a contract? and he should've just went along with the oppression of the producers. Well this is just bull****.... Have you ever been in a band were it just didn't work out? what do you do then. YOU LEAVE. Even if there is a ****ing contract.
Have you ever been in a band where everyone got to do only exactly what they wanted to do? No, because that doesn't exist.

Poor Damien didn't like being told what to do? Welcome to the real world. He entered a contract to make music and perform with the band Juniper, then he bailed on them because he didn't like what they are doing. That is not acceptable behavior. Again, imagine doing that at your own job. Agree to build someone a webpage, then quit because they want you to use the color scheme they selected.

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He clearly didn't know that the producers asked to change so much before signing it. once again don't ignore these facts.

He signed it, THEN he didn't like the commercial direction anymore. while the other band members did. fine then you leave! that's the most human thing to do! They disagreed he shouldn't have played ball because then he would write stuff he didn't feel is true.
Yes, because its such a rare occurrence that a band signs a record contract and is then asked to make their sound more mainstream. You're making him out to be an idiot. He knew exactly what he was getting into, but wanted to cash the check.




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He didn't credit bellx1?
After looking around it's quite clear he wrote the songs... so why credit them? I just remembered the Volcano '97 demo. isn't that enough proof HE wrote it?
I don't know what you think "writing a song" means, but its more than just lyrics and chord progressions. He performed the song with Juniper and it continued to grow and fill out. Unless he told all of them exactly how to play their instruments, they had input on the development of the song. Also, you don't acknowledge that there's a keyboard on that demo in addition to the guitar.
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Old 05-08-2012, 03:15 PM   #311
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The again nobody really insulted you did they now? There is a fine line between projecting your opinion on someone and actually insulting someone.

By the looks of it. This is actually freedom of speech Do your homework please.

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These are the rules Wheels reiterated:
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If I see anyone insulting anyone I will ban.
Its not my rule, but its what Wheels wants.
Also don't hide behind Wheels you yourself call upon these rules.


No you won't always get what you want in a band but the commercialisation of artists is a VERY well know issue a lot of recording artist currently have with the industry the last couple of decades. Damien didn't agree with this so he left.

So to get it straight: If you were to be forced into creating songs a way you don't feel is right, you're not comfortable in and does not work for you.... you would just keep going?
Or put it even more simple: If you were to sign for a job but it turned out to be something you HATE doing. would you continue?

Ofcourse he didn't know what he was getting into. please read back the interviews about juniper.


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I don't know what you think "writing a song" means, but its more than just lyrics and chord progressions.
....That's like saying making a movie is more then just all the video and audio. He wrote the lyrics and the guitar part. The other members wrote the other instruments permissibly. Have you listened to the Juniper version?(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oosaof2IIH4) It's nothing like the version he performs. So why credit them?

If you make a remix with the original artist of a popular song is the artist who first wrote the song supposed to credit you too?
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Old 05-08-2012, 03:44 PM   #312
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I have seen Damien Rice perform more times than anyone on this board.
as is becoming quite obvious as I catch up on all this you are once again missing the point.

I could care less how many shows you have seen - does that make you a better fan or give you this sense of obligation you so long for??

my question though was not how many have you seen but if he came TODAY would you go see him within reasonable distance?
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Old 05-08-2012, 04:42 PM   #313
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I know that he refuses to give them any credit whatsoever for songs that were developed while he was in Juniper, which they played on. Which is a really ****ty thing to do.
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There's a lot of stuff there, its pretty messy. But here's what we know. Damien registered songs in his name alone. BellX1 registered as their names and Damien, and released a few on albums. Damien didn't sue to get 100% of the royalties for songwriter on those tunes even though he's claimed to be sole songwriter.
You read a lot into a discrepancy in how the songs are registered, and you ignore the possibility that they could have talked and agreed to how things were to be done. You skip to conclusions that are sympathetic towards BellX1 and critical of Damien, but you could just as well skip to the exact opposite conclusions from the same set of facts. There simply is not enough information available to make any reasonable conclusion.

I noticed that the work ID numbers between each version of the songs are close to each other. This doesn't prove anything, but with other artists I've seen that songs registered at the same time have numbers that are near each other -- it could be an indicator that both parties discussed it and registered each of the songs at the same time. Or it could be 4 huge coincidences.

VOLCANO (Damien Rice: 520294559 / BellX1: 520294577)
TONGUE (Damien Rice: 501522678 / BellX1: 501522696)
FACE (Damien Rice: 360803712 / BellX1 360803730)
WOMAN LIKE A MAN (Damien Rice: 530967812 / BellX1: 530967830)

Tongue is registered without crediting Damien here:

http://repertoire.bmi.com/title.asp?...erytype=WorkID

What a ****ty thing to do, right? Nope, still don't know enough about the situation.

Last edited by faninor; 05-08-2012 at 04:45 PM.
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Old 05-08-2012, 04:45 PM   #314
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Those numbers - phone numbers, right?
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Old 05-08-2012, 05:02 PM   #315
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Wheels, here's another personal attack.
Wow. I'll take that back. 5-year-old seems far more appropriate in hindsight.

I'm done here. Have a happy rest of your life, Mario. You should get out and play in the sun more often.
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Old 05-08-2012, 05:52 PM   #316
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Wow. I'll take that back. 5-year-old seems far more appropriate in hindsight.

I'm done here. Have a happy rest of your life, Mario. You should get out and play in the sun more often.

Wheels, second personal attack from the same person. Destroying the friendliness of the community.
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Old 05-08-2012, 05:53 PM   #317
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You read a lot into a discrepancy in how the songs are registered, and you ignore the possibility that they could have talked and agreed to how things were to be done. You skip to conclusions that are sympathetic towards BellX1 and critical of Damien, but you could just as well skip to the exact opposite conclusions from the same set of facts. There simply is not enough information available to make any reasonable conclusion.

I noticed that the work ID numbers between each version of the songs are close to each other. This doesn't prove anything, but with other artists I've seen that songs registered at the same time have numbers that are near each other -- it could be an indicator that both parties discussed it and registered each of the songs at the same time. Or it could be 4 huge coincidences.

VOLCANO (Damien Rice: 520294559 / BellX1: 520294577)
TONGUE (Damien Rice: 501522678 / BellX1: 501522696)
FACE (Damien Rice: 360803712 / BellX1 360803730)
WOMAN LIKE A MAN (Damien Rice: 530967812 / BellX1: 530967830)

Tongue is registered without crediting Damien here:

http://repertoire.bmi.com/title.asp?...erytype=WorkID

What a ****ty thing to do, right? Nope, still don't know enough about the situation.
Could you tell me the difference between BMI and ASCAP?


And those numbers in ASCAP are sequential. It means Damien filed those songs alone, and BellX1 followed behind crediting everyone.
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Old 05-08-2012, 07:33 PM   #318
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When that somebody's sole source of income is convincing people he's not an asshole so they'll buy his music.


Et tu?
I have to say that I find it unbelievable how much you hate Damien and instead of letting go you need to go on a forum and rant about it again and again. As I said I would understand frustration or disappointment but I cannot understand pure hate to the point of blinding peoples minds...

like Sting said if you hate somebody, set them free!!!!! well maybe it was not that
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:23 PM
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Old 05-08-2012, 09:39 PM   #319
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It's a fallacy to think that ASCAP would process and assigns work IDs in precisely the order that they were submitted. But ignoring that, your reasoning is not very good. Damien registered the song, BellX1 found out and reacted by registered their own version, and all of this happened within such a short timeframe that the unique Work IDs assigned by a worldwide organization were that close to each other. I think it's pretty clear that they were communicating with each other first and you act like you know just how that conversation must have gone. There's just not enough information to continue a worthwhile discussion about it. Maybe I'll chime back in when there's something new to discuss. Hopefully it won't be too long.
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Old 05-08-2012, 09:40 PM   #320
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I have to say that I find it unbelievable how much you hate Damien and instead of letting go you need to go on a forum and rant about it again and again. As I said I would understand frustration or disappointment but I cannot understand pure hate to the point of blinding peoples minds...

like Sting said if you hate somebody, set them free!!!!! well maybe it was not that
lol

it is to the point of being incredibly sad.................
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Old 05-08-2012, 11:55 PM   #321
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Damien wrote:

Volcano
Woman like a Man
100% I dont care who credits who...he would never sing them/record them if he didnt

he also wrote or mostly wrote :
Face
Tongue

he would never play them live if he didnt, he has plenty of better material to sing live and would never 'cover' them live if he didnt contribute most/all otherwise

I also believe he wrote part of (or all of) "never" (renamed/changed 'eve apple of my eye' ) ..as the chords are identicla to Cold water, eskimo, lonely soldier/sleep dont weep and others...plus he does vocals on the studio recordings...I believe he was a major contributer to Bell X1's BIGGEST HIt ever

Damien wrote 80% of everything Juniper did so stop with Damien "owes' royalties as he DOES'NT!!! although I like what Bell X1 did on 'Flock', he is why they had the success they did with 'music in mouth' and "Neither am i "..I believe he even wrote 'little sister' and others from M.I.M , though not a great song....Damien was Juniper!! and him leaving was a big loss to the bands future
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Old 05-09-2012, 01:24 AM   #322
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I have to say that I find it unbelievable how much you hate Damien and instead of letting go you need to go on a forum and rant about it again and again. As I said I would understand frustration or disappointment but I cannot understand pure hate to the point of blinding peoples minds...

like Sting said if you hate somebody, set them free!!!!! well maybe it was not that

A number of posters here have purely fabricated that I hate damien rice.

Just because he's an asshole doesn't mean I give a flying **** about him. It's just sad to watch people worship an asshole. And defend an asshole. Just like a battered woman.
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:10 AM   #323
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which was the gist of my question you still haven't answered.................would you still go see someone you deem an arsehole?
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Old 05-09-2012, 06:19 AM   #324
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Mario, being very honest, I think you went too far, you're out of control. It's clear from your posts that you have this anger/hate/grudge against Damien to the point of no longer being rational/objective... it's like all this hate is clouding your judgment and poisoning your thoughts... I really think this thread should die cos it's actually reason with someone who's only discussing out of pure hate and anger. You sound like one of them people making up theories about UFOs or 9/11. What next? Maybe Damo isn't really Irish, he's just from London but he made it up cos it's more cool. Same with Lisa. She's from South Africa but she just pretends to be Irish.

Also reading your old posts, I think you've crossed the line. You've gone too far into insulting Damien at a personal level. For instance, judging Damien cos of his charity is going too far. That shouldn't be tolerated imho.
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Old 05-09-2012, 06:51 AM   #325
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A number of posters here have purely fabricated that I hate damien rice.

Just because he's an asshole doesn't mean I give a flying **** about him. It's just sad to watch people worship an asshole. And defend an asshole. Just like a battered woman.
You clearly do give quite a lot of ****s about him or you wouldn't be spending so much time rambling on and on and on.

It's not sad to watch people defend someone whose music they love and who they respect as an artist (not a commercial music making machine who owes us something). It's sad to watch someone who has clearly lost it and cannot get a grip on reality, stubborn is not the word. Admit defeat, no one is on the same page as you.

(Another personal attack Wheels, best block me)
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Old 05-09-2012, 07:57 AM   #326
DanielM
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I think Vienna and Borneoman said it best.
I am done with this argument now... I should have taken T-Lloyd's advice when he first gave it.

Since I started reading the forum it was always such a lovely and friendly place and I've been reading for something like 2 years now. It sucks that it changed so much on the opinion of 1 troubled person. I also feel sorry that I even contributed to this as much as I did.

Let's just continue the way it was and hopefully leave all of this behind.
And all the people who truly think Damien is such an asshole please just get off the Damien rice fan page then
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:18 PM   #327
davidcotyalex
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I will continue the pile on...................and i actually defended you in the beginning for speaking your mind

but unfortunately it seems that your hate has grown through the thread - by constantly re-iterating the same thing it has enhanced your negativity

you have made your point...............as someone said go get some fresh air
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Old 05-09-2012, 07:57 PM   #328
mario_d
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidcotyalex View Post
as is becoming quite obvious as I catch up on all this you are once again missing the point.

my question though was not how many have you seen but if he came TODAY would you go see him within reasonable distance?
You've missed the point. Damien has been an asshole since way back in his Juniper days and I've still seen more shows than anyone on this board.

Get it?
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Old 05-09-2012, 07:58 PM   #329
mario_d
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borneoman View Post
Mario, being very honest, I think you went too far, you're out of control. It's clear from your posts that you have this anger/hate/grudge against Damien to the point of no longer being rational/objective... it's like all this hate is clouding your judgment and poisoning your thoughts... I really think this thread should die cos it's actually reason with someone who's only discussing out of pure hate and anger. You sound like one of them people making up theories about UFOs or 9/11. What next? Maybe Damo isn't really Irish, he's just from London but he made it up cos it's more cool. Same with Lisa. She's from South Africa but she just pretends to be Irish.

Also reading your old posts, I think you've crossed the line. You've gone too far into insulting Damien at a personal level. For instance, judging Damien cos of his charity is going too far. That shouldn't be tolerated imho.
So this should be a place for blind worship? When do you start serving the Jesus Juice?


Also, my opinion of Damien as a person has been pretty consistent for the last eight or nine years, so not sure what you're talking about.
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Old 05-09-2012, 08:01 PM   #330
mario_d
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vienna View Post
It's not sad to watch people defend someone whose music they love and who they respect as an artist (not a commercial music making machine who owes us something).

No, that's actually quite outrageous.

He makes music you love so you defend his asshole personal/professional actions. That's exactly the really really awful, battered-woman behavior I'm specifically talking about.
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