Is Face degrading/humiliating/abusive etc...

[Nine]

Originally Posted by Livo

"i wanna be the only one that you know, happily your placebo, i wanna be the only one that you know, cos i adore you"

That's the BellX1 version - Damien's doesn't have the line 'happily a placebo' - but I still agree with what you said!

[Hendrik]

"Amazing grace, come sit on my Face..."

Yeah, sure, definetely degrading!!

[borneoman]

He told the story about Face in the Washington gig, May 25, 2007... after Eskimo...

[viv]

do you have it? or could you summarize?

[borneoman]

I put it in my 4shared folder so anyone can listen:
http://www.4shared.com/dir/2208578/4...0/sharing.html

[jonnycrouch]

Didn't catch a lot of that- its the obsessive thing again though.

[Livo]

Originally Posted by Nine

That's the BellX1 version - Damien's doesn't have the line 'happily a placebo' - but I still agree with what you said!

haha woops! guess i'm more familiar with the bell x1 version

[Lindsay]

Nine and babyeskimo...I'm glad you guys think I wasn't too far off...I thought maybe I had just gone mad and was missing something completely !

Originally Posted by borneoman

I put it in my 4shared folder so anyone can listen:
http://www.4shared.com/dir/2208578/4...0/sharing.html

Woohoo...borneoman to the rescue! Thank you and you seemed to have summarized it very well...aaaall about being obsessed.

"you become obsessed with the fact that you were the only person they should ever kiss in their life ever"

Assuming no one is saying it is endorsing rape anymore, I'm still not sure that I see it as being angry or demeaning.....but oops...I think I was wrong in saying there was some sort of conflict..."But he is quite passionate when singing it, quite forceful, so it seems that maybe he wants both...to stay who he is AND to be with her and be accepted by her...but maybe is being prevented from having it both ways." I guess I misunderstood his passion to be about frustration, but he says in the recording it was about obsession....so maybe it's just more about being very assertive... this is how it needs to be, this is what he really wants.

edit to add: Mr. borneoman sir...would you mind if I downloaded some of the other songs that you have? (and there doesn't seem to be a begging smiley, but I'm begging too )
edit: oh sir borneoman

[SilentNight]

Originally Posted by borneoman

I put it in my 4shared folder so anyone can listen:
http://www.4shared.com/dir/2208578/4...0/sharing.html

you got some rare songs, thanks for sharing!

[Lemmy]

i've always taken "i wanna be the only one that you know" at it's face value, in that he wants to be the only one she's ever with, or maybe it's young love and he wants to be the only one she "knows" in the biblical sense, i guess. it's a bit late and my words are rather jumbled.
i see no reason why being 'on your knees' would be degrading, even if it's taken literally. more likely though it can be taken figuratively, he wants her to be so in love with him that she's brought to her knees by the force of this love, which isn't necesarily a one sided thing.
i've always felt this song was kind of romantic and sweet, actually. maybe i was COMPLETELY wrong, but i see no message of abuse. maybe obsession, maybe all-consuming love, but no abuse.

[dboyd]

ugh, is this topic coming to a close soon? from the first post i saw about Face been aggressive towards women, i was, bothered by it. There was no doubt in my mind that there coule be anything suggesting rape, or anything else it's been called. I haven't said anything because when i start to type something i just got frustrated and so i decided to just let it be... Now that borneoman has shed the light on everyone, i hope to see no more accusations that this suggests that or that, unless there is some kind of evidence to back it up. picking out a few lines from a song and saying it suggests this or what not(with no evidence), i find it to be childish. I mean, ugh, sorry, i didn't mean to offend anyone or say ur an idiot for suggesting this or saying that and blah blah, i just don't like seen this stuff... i just had to get this off my mind

[jonnycrouch]

So a simple answer to the topic title (for those who've missed this behemoth of a thread, or who got bored halfway through): No.

Right, glad thats settled.

[davidcotyalex]

Absolute brilliance this thread!!

And yes leave it to Marti to set the record straight. Thanks bud.

What is amazing to me is that ya'll engage Lauren - how can one take her seriously? A kid living at home going to college who supposedly models to make money yet cannot go to the San Diego gig (where she lives) because her parents are making her stay home and she has no money??!! And I have no desire to be a model because I want to be a lawyer and then teach fifth grade??!! Why would you spend three years in law school and take the bar when you want to teach kids?? Makes no sense at all.

My advice is get your life together - realize you have A LOT to learn - and then maybe in about five or ten years you can try to lecture folks on an on-line forum about virtues and male/female relationships and the like.....Then again you could keep posting for the entertainment value......

[Bumpman]

I don't know if I'd buy into that; I disagree with pretty much everything Lauren had initially said, but she was big enough to admit that she was, at least in some respect, wrong about the nature of the lyrics. It's a skill I've never mastered so if nothing else then I can respect her for that. Also as far as I'm concerned; someone would graduate and pass the bar because consultancy in law pays about $1000 an hour and you can choose when to work. A license to practice law could also be considered a safety net in terms of gainful employment.

It occurs to me that the only real philosophical issue I have with this thread is that the song is coming under fire for not fitting in with feminist political correctness. Firstly; the song is art, and art is meant to be challenging, it's meant to be confrontational. Art should be like a car crash. If we started making things more digestible so that no-one's feelings were hurt, then we might as well forget about free speech. Without the ability to offend anyone and everyone, the human mind would be dead in the water.

Secondly; polling and studies have consistently shown that women who identify themselves as feminists are overwhelmingly white, aged over 17 but under 35, middle-class, affluent, healthy, employed, well-educated, politically left-leaning residents of Western Europe or the US. Which is fine in some contexts, but it does show that feminism is by no means a fair representation of women as a whole. Which is a fairly moot point anyway, because it's highly likely that most women don't want to be culturally and intellectually represented by feminism; the truth of the matter is that people represent themselves. Of course I'm not so ignorant as to think that feminism isn't socially vital to equality, especially in terms of issues like equal wages and fair political and judicial representation. But the idea that an 'ism' should have any prerogative in dictating the kind of art that's culturally acceptable makes me feel a little bit sick.

[davidcotyalex]

Originally Posted by Bumpman

I don't know if I'd buy into that; I disagree with pretty much everything Lauren had initially said, but she was big enough to admit that she was, at least in some respect, wrong about the nature of the lyrics. It's a skill I've never mastered so if nothing else then I can respect her for that. Also as far as I'm concerned; someone would graduate and pass the bar because consultancy in law pays about $1000 an hour and you can choose when to work. A license to practice law could also be considered a safety net in terms of gainful employment.

It occurs to me that the only real philosophical issue I have with this thread is that the song is coming under fire for not fitting in with feminist political correctness. Firstly; the song is art, and art is meant to be challenging, it's meant to be confrontational. Art should be like a car crash. If we started making things more digestible so that no-one's feelings were hurt, then we might as well forget about free speech. Without the ability to offend anyone and everyone, the human mind would be dead in the water.

Secondly; polling and studies have consistently shown that women who identify themselves as feminists are overwhelmingly white, aged over 17 but under 35, middle-class, affluent, healthy, employed, well-educated, politically left-leaning residents of Western Europe or the US. Which is fine in some contexts, but it does show that feminism is by no means a fair representation of women as a whole. Which is a fairly moot point anyway, because it's highly likely that most women don't want to be culturally and intellectually represented by feminism; the truth of the matter is that people represent themselves. Of course I'm not so ignorant as to think that feminism isn't socially vital to equality, especially in terms of issues like equal wages and fair political and judicial representation. But the idea that an 'ism' should have any prerogative in dictating the kind of art that's culturally acceptable makes me feel a little bit sick.

All good points if not a tad un-sequetor (sp?)

First I think it is the good and the bad of youth to throw random opinions out there that really have no basis - and fair enough she did admit she was wrong and to your point bump I admit an admirable trait (and one I as well have issues with).

On the law school thing i would argue if your intentions were to teach children then dedicate yourself to that and not spend four years of your life in a "safety net" alternative. To me it is hypocritical to say i am going to study to be one of the most dreaded professions on the face of the earth (lawyers) yet at the same time claim social nobility in wanting to be a teacher.

And yes art is contentious and worthy of debate - something frankly this site is lacking of in my opinion. So in that respect i totally agree that this thread has been productive in gaining varying schools of thought on a relatively agreed upon issue and - for that I thank you Lauren.

You completely lost me in the last paragraph - if your contention is that most "feminists" are 20-something upper middle class females who don't rep the rest of the female population, I am not sure how that extends to the comment "because it's highly likely that most women don't want to be culturally and intellectually represented by feminism." Couldn't one argue that the lower class or lower middle class female is too caught up in her survival as an individual or family to not have the opportunity to engage in such discussions? Not that I am a feminist by any means but I just didn't see a lot of substance behind your last point......

[A2_Blue]

Ok... So this may have been said already... I dont know but I do know im not going to read every post on this subject...

That being said, all I have to say is that, your mind makes up what the song is about when you hear it... so, there may not even be a difinetive meaning; just the one you hear when you listen to the song.

Damien has said so himself that he prefers not to explain what the meaning is behind some of his lyrics for the simple reason that that is a part of the enjoyment of listening to his music, the songs mean what you want them to. Therefore, it is very easy for a feminist (not that that is a bad thing) to see these lyrics as demeaning towards women.

oh btw... that cat is AWESOME (can I have him?)

[davidcotyalex]

Precisely all to my point - thanks for pointing out your age.

One little question _ why would you work all your life to 60 to then teach? If you are so self sufficient today surely you could do it in a much quicker time frame?!

But you are corrrect - go on and pontificate all you want........

[mario_d]

I'm certainly not going to read this whole ridiculous thread. And the attention you people are giving a 17 year old girl who lives in a "rape culture" is ridiculous.

But I do know what the song is about. Don't ask how because I forget, but I know Damien has explained what it means:

Its about really awful immature love. Stupid, obsessive, controlling love. "I want to be the only one that you know" is literally what it sounds like. There was a girl when he was younger and he was jealous and wanted her to never kiss anybody except for him. All the rest is just rapidfire all encompassing... everything he can imagine for the rest of life and not wanting to share her with anyone else.

I don't know whether the song was written immaturely or ironically. But Damien certainly sees it ironically now. And to think it is sexist is to 100% misunderstand the song. (not to mention the song is not gender based)

[A2_Blue]

Originally Posted by davidcotyalex

Precisely all to my point - thanks for pointing out your age.

One little question _ why would you work all your life to 60 to then teach? If you are so self sufficient today surely you could do it in a much quicker time frame?!

But you are corrrect - go on and pontificate all you want........

QUESTION... When did this become a LaurenBledsoe-bashing-party? Though you people, along with myself might not agree with her INITIAL take on the meaning of the song... does that not give her the right to express her opinion and furthermore, open it up for debate? Instead you would rather focus not on the words coming out of the mouth, but the age of the mouth and the personal life of that person.

So I ask... WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?

I suggest that you all lighten up, respect other's opinions as you would have them respect your's, and not be so fickle.

Good topic Lauren. And also, im glad that you were able to have a broad enough mind to change your opinion on the song instead of bashing people for their's (like certian people previously mentioned in the post.)

[dboyd]

can we please lock this topic and just lay it to rest please? :X

[babyeskimo]

Originally Posted by A2_Blue

QUESTION... When did this become a LaurenBledsoe-bashing-party? Though you people, along with myself might not agree with her INITIAL take on the meaning of the song... does that not give her the right to express her opinion and furthermore, open it up for debate? Instead you would rather focus not on the words coming out of the mouth, but the age of the mouth and the personal life of that person.

So I ask... WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?

I suggest that you all lighten up, respect other's opinions as you would have them respect your's, and not be so fickle.

Good topic Lauren. And also, im glad that you were able to have a broad enough mind to change your opinion on the song instead of bashing people for their's (like certian people previously mentioned in the post.)

Exactly!

[Rai]

Originally Posted by A2_Blue

Good topic Lauren. And also, im glad that you were able to have a broad enough mind to change your opinion on the song instead of bashing people for their's (like certian people previously mentioned in the post.)

Agreed. I think Lauren is our AJP Taylor here, who likes to throw bombs of radical statements wich spark great and intersting debates (until the insulting begins... :P). Kepp it up

[Ships_Were_Sailin]

dont get personal, you aint got no room to ask about laurens personal life and you certainly dont have any room to question her ambitions or motives. if you want offer your side of the argument then go ahead, but if your here to attack, then leave.

[davidcotyalex]

Originally Posted by Rai

Agreed. I think Lauren is our AJP Taylor here, who likes to throw bombs of radical statements wich spark great and intersting debates (until the insulting begins... :P). Kepp it up

I am glad you yourself find it enjoyable - if she had stuck to the issue at hand whih is the song face then maybe I would be more understanding. But to say...and frankly there was a fair amount of insulting in the earlier reponses they are just much more tactful than I

"we live in a rape culture. if a girl that wears short skirts and tight clothes, is raped, people will often say something to the degree of, "well look at how she was dressed, i mean she had it coming." no, she didn't have it coming. women's bodies are not the property of men, no matter what type of clothing she chooses to put on her body. men can control themselves, and this degree of acceptance of rape is disgusting and repulsive.......

however this is a predominately patriarchal society. i see girls being "sexed up" from an early age. i dont want my 5th grader sister to think she has to wear lipgloss, wear a mini skirt and act stupid for a boy to like her, which is basically what she is taught every day."

Just one man's opinion who does take offesnive at someone stirring the pot in such a manner.....I consider myself a highly intelligent and well educated individual but I would not stand up on a soap box and make sweeping generalizations about the society in which we live unless I felt incredibly convicted and not as a guteral response to the interpretation of some lyrical prose.....

And ships our mails crossed paths - my only point originally was not sure why we have to listen to the "know it all tude" of the youth but hey if you find it worthy of debate I shall step aside. As to the personal stuff she brings it in here - I model to make money yet I deplore the biz, I want to be a lawyer until I am 60 then teach the fifth grade, I so with I could go see damo but cannot - all of this is in her posts but you may have a point and so understood....

[Bumpman]

Originally Posted by davidcotyalex

You completely lost me in the last paragraph - if your contention is that most "feminists" are 20-something upper middle class females who don't rep the rest of the female population, I am not sure how that extends to the comment "because it's highly likely that most women don't want to be culturally and intellectually represented by feminism." Couldn't one argue that the lower class or lower middle class female is too caught up in her survival as an individual or family to not have the opportunity to engage in such discussions? Not that I am a feminist by any means but I just didn't see a lot of substance behind your last point......

My point was that the initial argument was grounded in first-wave and second-wave feminism. Third-wave is a far more rational version because it deals with real problems rather then perceived ones. Wikipedia has some good articles on it if you've never read the books.

[davidcotyalex]

Originally Posted by Bumpman

My point was that the initial argument was grounded in first-wave and second-wave feminism. Third-wave is a far more rational version because it deals with real problems rather then perceived ones. Wikipedia has some good articles on it if you've never read the books.

Got it - thanks for the clarification.

[Ships_Were_Sailin]

Originally Posted by davidcotyalex

And ships our mails crossed paths - my only point originally was not sure why we have to listen to the "know it all tude" of the youth but hey if you find it worthy of debate I shall step aside. As to the personal stuff she brings it in here - I model to make money yet I deplore the biz, I want to be a lawyer until I am 60 then teach the fifth grade, I so with I could go see damo but cannot - all of this is in her posts but you may have a point and so understood....

yeah we did cross, your post is fine in that terms, debating is all good, just try to keep it clean and as relevent as possible, it keeps lauren from feeling like she is a target.

but its nice to see a poster who can accept other peoples points like yourself, so well done to you for that

[Lindsay]

Hmmmm...I don't realy want to prolong this thread..... but I kind of what to say something though it is reiterating what I said before.

Originally Posted by A2_Blue

When did this become a LaurenBledsoe-bashing-party? Though you people, along with myself might not agree with her INITIAL take on the meaning of the song... does that not give her the right to express her opinion and furthermore, open it up for debate? Instead you would rather focus not on the words coming out of the mouth, but the age of the mouth and the personal life of that person.

I agree about having the right to express an opinion, but I think there are limits. Similar to what bumpman said about the freedom of art, but again I think there are limits as some things are unacceptable because they are generally universally frowned upon (I'm thinking "endorsing rape", killing babies, but even violence could be debatable: some violence is for defense, some for more revolutionary gains, etc.). So if you're suggesting that someone (I won't even say Lauren, she has apologized in the other thread on porn, and personally as well and has stopped talking about things endorsing rape) has the right to suggest Face is demeaning, or insulting, or whatever, I agree with you....but if you're suggesting that someone should be allowed to claim Face is endorsing rape, as I quoted from another thread in an earlier post, I thoroughly disagree.

The reasons were never fully explained, never fully justified....but still, in my opinion, to suggest Face, and indirectly Damien, was promoting rape just needs to be stopped because it's totally totally unacceptable, know what I mean. When I would pressume 90% of the population does not endorse rape. When I'm thinking from the bit I know about Damien he seems to be a decent guy.... isn't a crazy celebrity, just a normal guy who is talented at what he does: isn't in and out of jail, hasn't been married multiple times, isn't in rehab, I remember a bit about him being a vegan or something, seems to be concerned about the environment, seems nice enough in interviews, and seems to write songs with different themes, one of which is sexual. For someone to overlook allllll of this and only focus on.....believing we live in a rape culture.... and to pick out that he writes songs with a sexual nature, which must now mean he is a sexual beast of some sort...and to pick a few random words from a song for evidence....and then suggest it's endorsing rape, that a person is endorsing rape....to me it's so wrong and completely unacceptable. If someone were doing that to me I would be furious, if someone was doing that to my brother I would be mad as hell, to anyone I would be pissed, and poor Damien can't even defend himself and wouldn't want to and shouldn't be obligated to....rape is a terrible, terrible thing and to have it suggested that either because of a song you write or that you watch porn you are endorsing rape is a very serious, terrible accusation in my opinion.

But I would consider the age of this view....not too say this person isn't interested and passionate and smart and committed....but in my opinion in this case maybe a bit lacking in perspective/experience. But still any person I think older than maybe 13 should know, and if not be told, that to accuse something or someone of endorsing rape or something similarily horrific is totally unacceptable unless they are very,very sure.

But I don't know....maybe it's just me....the only other forum I'm on is development related, and we tend to think it's "fun" to write each other detailed essays and talk about serious things.....it seems it's quite different here....but I still don't think anything like this, whether online or offline, would be acceptable where I live.

Originally Posted by Bumpman

My point was that the initial argument was grounded in first-wave and second-wave feminism. Third-wave is a far more rational version because it deals with real problems rather then perceived ones. Wikipedia has some good articles on it if you've never read the books.

You're so right....many different branches of feminism, but unfortnately not everyone is so aware. Which leads me to my second issue with this .....honestly, in my opinon an analysis like the one about Face endorsing rape is extreme, radical feminism borderline irrational, conspiracy theory....and it's opinions like this that makes it soooooooo tough for all other feminists, because it's classified with a sweeping generalized term..."feminist". It's exactly for reasons like this that a more moderate perspective, those fighting for justice of any type, has taken to the term "gender equality" and has dropped the term feminism/feminist.....many people often just stop listening after hearing the word "feminism".

(I proooomise I'm done but whew...this has put a bit of jump in my step today )

[A2_Blue]

Originally Posted by Lindsay

Hmmmm...I don't realy want to prolong this thread..... but I kind of what to say something though it is reiterating what I said before.



I agree about having the right to express an opinion, but I think there are limits. Similar to what bumpman said about the freedom of art, but again I think there are limits as some things are unacceptable because they are generally universally frowned upon (I'm thinking "endorsing rape", killing babies, but even violence could be debatable: some violence is for defense, some for more revolutionary gains, etc.). So if you're suggesting that someone (I won't even say Lauren, she has apologized in the other thread on porn, and personally as well and has stopped talking about things endorsing rape) has the right to suggest Face is demeaning, or insulting, or whatever, I agree with you....but if you're suggesting that someone should be allowed to claim Face is endorsing rape, as I quoted from another thread in an earlier post, I thoroughly disagree.

The reasons were never fully explained, never fully justified....but still, in my opinion, to suggest Face, and indirectly Damien, was promoting rape just needs to be stopped because it's totally totally unacceptable, know what I mean. When I would pressume 90% of the population does not endorse rape. When I'm thinking from the bit I know about Damien he seems to be a decent guy.... isn't a crazy celebrity, just a normal guy who is talented at what he does: isn't in and out of jail, hasn't been married multiple times, isn't in rehab, I remember a bit about him being a vegan or something, seems to be concerned about the environment, seems nice enough in interviews, and seems to write songs with different themes, one of which is sexual. For someone to overlook allllll of this and only focus on.....believing we live in a rape culture.... and to pick out that he writes songs with a sexual nature, which must now mean he is a sexual beast of some sort...and to pick a few random words from a song for evidence....and then suggest it's endorsing rape, that a person is endorsing rape....to me it's so wrong and completely unacceptable. If someone were doing that to me I would be furious, if someone was doing that to my brother I would be mad as hell, to anyone I would be pissed, and poor Damien can't even defend himself and wouldn't want to and shouldn't be obligated to....rape is a terrible, terrible thing and to have it suggested that either because of a song you write or that you watch porn you are endorsing rape is a very serious, terrible accusation in my opinion.

But I would consider the age of this view....not too say this person isn't interested and passionate and smart and committed....but in my opinion in this case maybe a bit lacking in perspective/experience. But still any person I think older than maybe 13 should know, and if not be told, that to accuse something or someone of endorsing rape or something similarily horrific is totally unacceptable unless they are very,very sure.

But I don't know....maybe it's just me....the only other forum I'm on is development related, and we tend to think it's "fun" to write each other detailed essays and talk about serious things.....it seems it's quite different here....but I still don't think anything like this, whether online or offline, would be acceptable where I live.



You're so right....many different branches of feminism, but unfortnately not everyone is so aware. Which leads me to my second issue with this .....honestly, in my opinon an analysis like the one about Face endorsing rape is extreme, radical feminism borderline irrational, conspiracy theory....and it's opinions like this that makes it soooooooo tough for all other feminists, because it's classified with a sweeping generalized term..."feminist". It's exactly for reasons like this that a more moderate perspective, those fighting for justice of any type, has taken to the term "gender equality" and has dropped the term feminism/feminist.....many people often just stop listening after hearing the word "feminism".

(I proooomise I'm done but whew...this has put a bit of jump in my step today )

Lindsay, I couldnt agree with you more. I too thought it was innapropriate to tie "face" (or anything else for that matter), to rape.

I was mostly caught up on the fact that people started bashing her person, and not what was said... her personal life has nothing to do with this convorsation.

Also, I might have missed some of her posts, but what I thought she was saying was that the song "Face" was moraly degrating to women... I didnt see where she said it was about rape.

But atleast, like I said, she was able to see that the lyrics could be taken in many more, and more logical ways.

But yeah, what you said is right on.

[Lindsay]

Ya, I wasn't quite sure what you were refering with the rights of opinion.

Originally Posted by A2_Blue

I was mostly caught up on the fact that people started bashing her person, and not what was said... her personal life has nothing to do with this convorsation.

But very nicely said, totally totally totally... I probably have a million and one terribly questionable opinions every day and I would much prefer to be helped than thought of as a bad person !