the need to feel something real...part 2

kavu478 · 08-30-2003, 05:51 PM

next question for those of you who are brave enough...

"How do you know right from wrong?"

kavu

tasha039 · 08-30-2003, 05:56 PM

society tells you what is right or wrong and depending how you were raised depends what your beliefs in right or wrong are.

Aisling · 08-31-2003, 07:31 AM

how much you get paid!!!

tasha039 · 08-31-2003, 01:40 PM

Hmmmm, I guessing that was insulting, Aisling. Society basically defines how you are to live your life at that moment.

exp: a man living in medieval times can eat with his hands and burp. Nowadays, you are to use utensils and be polite and not burp.

yOU CAN BREAK A LITTLE OUT OF YOUR SOCIETY'S MOLD BUT, NOT SO MUCH. AS YOU GROW, YOU LEARN WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG IN YOUR OWN DEFINITION.

exp: it is wrong for me today, at this moment where i live to be opposed to war (but i still do), you just do not speak avidly about it. Where i live, war is right. War is the common interest in all.

now do you understand

Aisling · 08-31-2003, 05:27 PM

do you mean where you live you're supposed to agree with war is the entire us of a or just a small part of it? ireland for such a small country is pretty open minded i think.
furthermore your conscience will let you know-that is i guess if not interrupted by society which would almost be impossible these days so i quess i have to agree with tasha!

kavu478 · 08-31-2003, 05:29 PM

ummm... interesting.

kavu478 · 08-31-2003, 05:37 PM

...just for a point of reference... not everyone in the U.S. agrees with the President's policy with the war in Iraq, however... some do. The U.S. is a very large country with people whose ideas fall anywhere and everywhere on the spectrum.

what about right or wrong on a personal level? It sounds like a couple of you believe that you base your morals and ethics based on what society believes or tells you to believe. Is this correct?

tasha039 · 08-31-2003, 07:33 PM

no, no...because of where I live I have to at least keep my opinions on a short leash because war is widely accepted (which does not make sense because I live in a liberal state-but then again we [califonia] have that little recall problem). Society right now tells me anti-war is not accepted, so you have to keep a leash on your mouth in order to keep peace. I just do not partake in conversations about war. Thank you Steve...not everyone believes in war.

I do not do what society tells me..I respect it, but I know personally what I believe in is right for me. Exp: I date someone who believes in war..I do not. Do I voice my opinion and fight with him about it? No...I respect that that is his choice, and I respect society by keeping peace about my opinions. Yes, a large part of U.S. believes in war, and why would they not be angry? Lots of people were killed for no reason. I have family in New York who work in the city...but do I fine retaliation in war. No. I do not find it justified. And I have a long list of reasons why, but I will not tell you because I respect whatever your stance on war is. I like your questions...no matter how many times I have to repeat myself [img]smileys/smiley2.gif[/img] okay, bring on the next question...

kavu478 · 08-31-2003, 10:32 PM

anyone else want to give it a go?

tasha039 · 08-31-2003, 10:35 PM

tee-hee...I have set the tone...[img]smileys/smiley17.gif[/img]

dara · 09-01-2003, 02:54 AM

right and wrong is based on ones own principles and morals......i always thought?

tasha039 · 09-01-2003, 03:30 AM

yes...I was just being silly...if that is of course what you are making reference to.

kavu478 · 09-01-2003, 01:50 PM

I think that right and wrong is determined by what we accept as Truth. If we are unclear as how we define truth, then we will be unclear about moral decisions, making it next to impossible to distinguish between right and wrong.

I do find this amusing… several people have stated on this site that Truth is relative, meaning “what is true for you, may or may not be true for me.” This basically allows every idea of truth to be equal to one another and allows the individual to make their own subjective interpretations.

Now we see this trickle down into the realm of morals and ethics, the world of right and wrong. “What is wrong for you may or may not be wrong for me!” Well, let’s see how this works.

What if I said (hypothetically speaking) that I thought torturing babies was fun. In fact, I found it very relaxing and therapeutic.I would hope that you would be disgusted and dial the proper authorities! But is torturing babies wrong? Not by the definition or moral relativism. It might be wrong in your eyes, but in mine it is perfectly okay. Can you start to see the problems with this?

Some argue that society dictates what is true…and what is right or wrong. I would agree that to some extent our environment will influence the way we may behave but it does excuse us from the problem. Recently an armored car was in an accident near my home town (no joke) and money littered the highway. Several thousands of dollars were picked up by folks who had stopped their cars right in the middle of the road. Police have spent the past few weeks trying to account for all the lost loot and have even made some arrests. Was it right for people to keep the money? Some say Yes! Why do we all come to an agreement that stealing is illegal, yet picking up money that obviously doesn’t belong to you is okay? Stealing is wrong but downloading music that is covered by copyright laws is not that bad. See the problem?

But let’s not forget the next sentence.These same folks will follow up this statement with, “…and I think that it’s wrong for people to not be open minded. We should all tolerate each other.” This is a self-refuting argument. By saying that all people should be open minded, you are making a judgment and an absolute claim…which would nullify the notion of being open minded…right?

“You shouldn’t force your morality on me!”
“Why not?”
“Because it’s wrong to force you opinion on others!”
(but see how the individual just killed his own argument by forcing his own morality on me for what I believe? It’s like saying, “There are no moral rules. Here’s one.”)

“Who are you to judge?”
(That statement itself is not seeking information, but making a judgment about a “judger”)

That's why I think that there is absolute truth. I believe that is this absolute truth that we use for a standard to measure what is right and what is wrong.

kavu478 · 09-01-2003, 11:42 PM

sooooo... got a little long winded on that last one. sorry 'bout that.

tasha039 · 09-02-2003, 12:56 AM

oi vay..do you have a condensed version, you know, short and sweet? I was lost somewhere by the thirteenth sentence. But then again, I am sure that is what my posts for this question look like.[img]smileys/smiley5.gif[/img]

Gatsby · 09-02-2003, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dara

right and wrong is based on ones own principles and morals......i always thought?

Exactly... i dont know how people are still having this conversation?[img]smileys/smiley24.gif[/img]Edited by: Jeweller

tasha039 · 09-02-2003, 11:24 AM

we are still having this conversation because we still need to feel something to debate...

what happened to oscar and shakespeare, jeweller? i think i am going to cry

kavu478 · 09-02-2003, 01:30 PM

Sorry gang, I know that most folks don't care about this sort of thing...but I don't want to live life and have to check my brain at the door.

tasha039 · 09-02-2003, 01:35 PM

very good point sTEVE

kavu478 · 09-03-2003, 12:31 PM

no problem, tasha.

tasha039 · 09-03-2003, 01:41 PM

tee-hee, you never answered my question. I need a short and sweet if it is not a problem. Hmmm this is my favortie post room to go into.

kavu478 · 09-03-2003, 01:48 PM

"That's why I think that there is absolute truth. I believe that it is this absolute truth that we use for a standard to measure what is right and what is wrong."

tasha039 · 09-03-2003, 01:55 PM

ah, very insightful. I like. Hey, you are finally roadie!

kavu478 · 09-03-2003, 02:07 PM

thanks...finally hit'n the road with the band!

tasha039 · 09-03-2003, 02:07 PM

LOL...now you have to carry my piano

LisaOBrien · 09-03-2003, 10:10 PM

lalalalalaalaaaaa im practisin'

tasha039 · 09-04-2003, 11:46 AM

oh lisa, i just saw your signature..awe! i had a counting crows one then Alan changed it. i need to go change it back.

daol20 · 09-04-2003, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tasha039

Yes, a large part of U.S. believes in war, and why would they not be angry? Lots of people were killed for no reason. I have family in New York who work in the city...but do I fine retaliation in war. No. I do not find it justified. And I have a long list of reasons why, but I will not tell you because I respect whatever your stance on war is. I like your questions...no matter how many times I have to repeat myself [img]smileys/smiley2.gif[/img] okay, bring on the next question...

I know this is just changing the subject back to an old one, but that statement shows that even you, (an American citizen who is anti-war) still relate what happened on Sept 11th to Sadam H. and the invading of Iraq. The only links to eachotherare the that fact that they are a muslim country and that they too do not like the US (especially after Gulf War I when the people were betrayed by the US).

If you are anti-war and still have that association with Iraq and New York, then think what someone who is pro-war feel towards them. That war was wrong. And now that all those people have been killed, mamed or ophaned by US bombs, the evidence is showing that it was wrong and the both US and UK governments glossed over the truth. Had more peoplepushed their anti-war beliefs before all those lives were lost this wouldnt have happened.

Sometimes, when you know somehting is wrong and others believe its right you need to stand up and be counted!
Edited by: daol20

tasha039 · 09-04-2003, 02:50 PM

hmm, maybe i should explain... most educated americans have known about the problems abroad and they were not tended to before. This war or what is left of it is a cover to go into Iraq and conquer our foreign investments. Whereas many of us are humanitarians, i believe we are killing more people (large majority being innocents) than solving the issue at hand. The original intent of this war that was made public was to go find Usma Bin Laden and his people and bring them to justice. Then when alliance failed with Iraq, that is when the sh*t hit the fan, so to speak. Look, I really hate talking about war. I already feel like I somehow represent a certain amounts of peoples. And I do not like it when other countries think all Americans are pro-war. This is just one opinon and whereas facts still stand...ugh. This is too complicated. This was supposed to be a war on terroism, not on alliances and foreign investments.

kavu478 · 09-04-2003, 04:42 PM

Daol20...quick question that has to do with your most current post...

How do you personally define what is right and what is wrong? I think this would help me see where you are coming from.

08-30-2003, 05:51 PM	#1
kavu478 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 236	next question for those of you who are brave enough... "How do you know right from wrong?" kavu __________________ "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." -Albert Einstein

08-30-2003, 05:56 PM	#2
tasha039 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 669	society tells you what is right or wrong and depending how you were raised depends what your beliefs in right or wrong are. __________________ THE PRICE OF A MEMORY IS THE MEMORY OF THE SORROW IT BRINGS. -COUNTING CROWS

08-31-2003, 07:31 AM	#3
Aisling Mel is so hot right now Join Date: May 2003 Location: Bromwich suite Posts: 2,773	how much you get paid!!! __________________ america is so hot right now

08-31-2003, 01:40 PM	#4
tasha039 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 669	Hmmmm, I guessing that was insulting, Aisling. Society basically defines how you are to live your life at that moment. exp: a man living in medieval times can eat with his hands and burp. Nowadays, you are to use utensils and be polite and not burp. yOU CAN BREAK A LITTLE OUT OF YOUR SOCIETY'S MOLD BUT, NOT SO MUCH. AS YOU GROW, YOU LEARN WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG IN YOUR OWN DEFINITION. exp: it is wrong for me today, at this moment where i live to be opposed to war (but i still do), you just do not speak avidly about it. Where i live, war is right. War is the common interest in all. now do you understand __________________ THE PRICE OF A MEMORY IS THE MEMORY OF THE SORROW IT BRINGS. -COUNTING CROWS

08-31-2003, 05:27 PM	#5
Aisling Mel is so hot right now Join Date: May 2003 Location: Bromwich suite Posts: 2,773	do you mean where you live you're supposed to agree with war is the entire us of a or just a small part of it? ireland for such a small country is pretty open minded i think. furthermore your conscience will let you know-that is i guess if not interrupted by society which would almost be impossible these days so i quess i have to agree with tasha! __________________ america is so hot right now

08-31-2003, 05:29 PM	#6
kavu478 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 236	ummm... interesting. __________________ "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." -Albert Einstein

08-31-2003, 05:37 PM	#7
kavu478 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 236	...just for a point of reference... not everyone in the U.S. agrees with the President's policy with the war in Iraq, however... some do. The U.S. is a very large country with people whose ideas fall anywhere and everywhere on the spectrum. what about right or wrong on a personal level? It sounds like a couple of you believe that you base your morals and ethics based on what society believes or tells you to believe. Is this correct? __________________ "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." -Albert Einstein

08-31-2003, 07:33 PM	#8
tasha039 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 669	no, no...because of where I live I have to at least keep my opinions on a short leash because war is widely accepted (which does not make sense because I live in a liberal state-but then again we [califonia] have that little recall problem). Society right now tells me anti-war is not accepted, so you have to keep a leash on your mouth in order to keep peace. I just do not partake in conversations about war. Thank you Steve...not everyone believes in war. I do not do what society tells me..I respect it, but I know personally what I believe in is right for me. Exp: I date someone who believes in war..I do not. Do I voice my opinion and fight with him about it? No...I respect that that is his choice, and I respect society by keeping peace about my opinions. Yes, a large part of U.S. believes in war, and why would they not be angry? Lots of people were killed for no reason. I have family in New York who work in the city...but do I fine retaliation in war. No. I do not find it justified. And I have a long list of reasons why, but I will not tell you because I respect whatever your stance on war is. I like your questions...no matter how many times I have to repeat myself [img]smileys/smiley2.gif[/img] okay, bring on the next question... __________________ THE PRICE OF A MEMORY IS THE MEMORY OF THE SORROW IT BRINGS. -COUNTING CROWS

08-31-2003, 10:32 PM	#9
kavu478 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 236	anyone else want to give it a go? __________________ "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." -Albert Einstein

08-31-2003, 10:35 PM	#10
tasha039 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 669	tee-hee...I have set the tone...[img]smileys/smiley17.gif[/img] __________________ THE PRICE OF A MEMORY IS THE MEMORY OF THE SORROW IT BRINGS. -COUNTING CROWS

09-01-2003, 02:54 AM	#11
dara Eskimo Regular Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: United States Posts: 271	right and wrong is based on ones own principles and morals......i always thought?

09-01-2003, 03:30 AM	#12
tasha039 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 669	yes...I was just being silly...if that is of course what you are making reference to. __________________ THE PRICE OF A MEMORY IS THE MEMORY OF THE SORROW IT BRINGS. -COUNTING CROWS

09-01-2003, 01:50 PM	#13
kavu478 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 236	I think that right and wrong is determined by what we accept as Truth. If we are unclear as how we define truth, then we will be unclear about moral decisions, making it next to impossible to distinguish between right and wrong. I do find this amusing… several people have stated on this site that Truth is relative, meaning “what is true for you, may or may not be true for me.” This basically allows every idea of truth to be equal to one another and allows the individual to make their own subjective interpretations. Now we see this trickle down into the realm of morals and ethics, the world of right and wrong. “What is wrong for you may or may not be wrong for me!” Well, let’s see how this works. What if I said (hypothetically speaking) that I thought torturing babies was fun. In fact, I found it very relaxing and therapeutic.I would hope that you would be disgusted and dial the proper authorities! But is torturing babies wrong? Not by the definition or moral relativism. It might be wrong in your eyes, but in mine it is perfectly okay. Can you start to see the problems with this? Some argue that society dictates what is true…and what is right or wrong. I would agree that to some extent our environment will influence the way we may behave but it does excuse us from the problem. Recently an armored car was in an accident near my home town (no joke) and money littered the highway. Several thousands of dollars were picked up by folks who had stopped their cars right in the middle of the road. Police have spent the past few weeks trying to account for all the lost loot and have even made some arrests. Was it right for people to keep the money? Some say Yes! Why do we all come to an agreement that stealing is illegal, yet picking up money that obviously doesn’t belong to you is okay? Stealing is wrong but downloading music that is covered by copyright laws is not that bad. See the problem? But let’s not forget the next sentence.These same folks will follow up this statement with, “…and I think that it’s wrong for people to not be open minded. We should all tolerate each other.” This is a self-refuting argument. By saying that all people should be open minded, you are making a judgment and an absolute claim…which would nullify the notion of being open minded…right? “You shouldn’t force your morality on me!” “Why not?” “Because it’s wrong to force you opinion on others!” (but see how the individual just killed his own argument by forcing his own morality on me for what I believe? It’s like saying, “There are no moral rules. Here’s one.”) “Who are you to judge?” (That statement itself is not seeking information, but making a judgment about a “judger”) That's why I think that there is absolute truth. I believe that is this absolute truth that we use for a standard to measure what is right and what is wrong. __________________ "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." -Albert Einstein

09-01-2003, 11:42 PM	#14
kavu478 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 236	sooooo... got a little long winded on that last one. sorry 'bout that. __________________ "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." -Albert Einstein

09-02-2003, 12:56 AM	#15
tasha039 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 669	oi vay..do you have a condensed version, you know, short and sweet? I was lost somewhere by the thirteenth sentence. But then again, I am sure that is what my posts for this question look like.[img]smileys/smiley5.gif[/img] __________________ THE PRICE OF A MEMORY IS THE MEMORY OF THE SORROW IT BRINGS. -COUNTING CROWS

09-02-2003, 11:24 AM	#17
tasha039 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 669	we are still having this conversation because we still need to feel something to debate... what happened to oscar and shakespeare, jeweller? i think i am going to cry __________________ THE PRICE OF A MEMORY IS THE MEMORY OF THE SORROW IT BRINGS. -COUNTING CROWS

09-02-2003, 01:30 PM	#18
kavu478 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 236	Sorry gang, I know that most folks don't care about this sort of thing...but I don't want to live life and have to check my brain at the door. __________________ "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." -Albert Einstein

09-02-2003, 01:35 PM	#19
tasha039 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 669	very good point sTEVE __________________ THE PRICE OF A MEMORY IS THE MEMORY OF THE SORROW IT BRINGS. -COUNTING CROWS

09-03-2003, 12:31 PM	#20
kavu478 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 236	no problem, tasha.

09-03-2003, 01:41 PM	#21
tasha039 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 669	tee-hee, you never answered my question. I need a short and sweet if it is not a problem. Hmmm this is my favortie post room to go into. __________________ THE PRICE OF A MEMORY IS THE MEMORY OF THE SORROW IT BRINGS. -COUNTING CROWS

09-03-2003, 01:48 PM	#22
kavu478 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 236	"That's why I think that there is absolute truth. I believe that it is this absolute truth that we use for a standard to measure what is right and what is wrong."

09-03-2003, 01:55 PM	#23
tasha039 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 669	ah, very insightful. I like. Hey, you are finally roadie! __________________ THE PRICE OF A MEMORY IS THE MEMORY OF THE SORROW IT BRINGS. -COUNTING CROWS

09-03-2003, 02:07 PM	#24
kavu478 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 236	thanks...finally hit'n the road with the band!

09-03-2003, 02:07 PM	#25
tasha039 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 669	LOL...now you have to carry my piano __________________ THE PRICE OF A MEMORY IS THE MEMORY OF THE SORROW IT BRINGS. -COUNTING CROWS

09-03-2003, 10:10 PM	#26
LisaOBrien Eskimo Regular Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ireland Posts: 411	lalalalalaalaaaaa im practisin' __________________ and everytime she sneezes i think it's love...

09-04-2003, 11:46 AM	#27
tasha039 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 669	oh lisa, i just saw your signature..awe! i had a counting crows one then Alan changed it. i need to go change it back. __________________ THE PRICE OF A MEMORY IS THE MEMORY OF THE SORROW IT BRINGS. -COUNTING CROWS

09-04-2003, 02:50 PM	#29
tasha039 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 669	hmm, maybe i should explain... most educated americans have known about the problems abroad and they were not tended to before. This war or what is left of it is a cover to go into Iraq and conquer our foreign investments. Whereas many of us are humanitarians, i believe we are killing more people (large majority being innocents) than solving the issue at hand. The original intent of this war that was made public was to go find Usma Bin Laden and his people and bring them to justice. Then when alliance failed with Iraq, that is when the sh*t hit the fan, so to speak. Look, I really hate talking about war. I already feel like I somehow represent a certain amounts of peoples. And I do not like it when other countries think all Americans are pro-war. This is just one opinon and whereas facts still stand...ugh. This is too complicated. This was supposed to be a war on terroism, not on alliances and foreign investments. __________________ THE PRICE OF A MEMORY IS THE MEMORY OF THE SORROW IT BRINGS. -COUNTING CROWS

09-04-2003, 04:42 PM	#30
kavu478 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 236	Daol20...quick question that has to do with your most current post... How do you personally define what is right and what is wrong? I think this would help me see where you are coming from.