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08-06-2007, 04:34 PM | #1 |
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Is Face degrading/humiliating/abusive etc...
In another thread a poster has criticized Face for being anti-woman, degrading, oppressive etc..... (I invite her....Lauren to explain for herself so I'm not putting words in her mouth) This take on the song struck me as a bit extreme and I'm wondering how some the rest of you feel.
By the way, I LOVE FACE!!!!!!!!!!!! |
08-06-2007, 05:30 PM |
LaurenM |
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08-06-2007, 05:43 PM |
LaurenM |
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08-06-2007, 05:44 PM | #2 |
Chilly Eskimo
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I think women get men to do things that demean them as much as men do it to women, for sure where I live I defintally think that its the women who have control over things.
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08-06-2007, 05:46 PM | #3 |
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Just because he talks about a woman on her knees, doesn't mean that she's doing what you're implying. She could be doing many things, praying, pledging allegiance etc.
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08-06-2007, 05:46 PM |
LaurenM |
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08-06-2007, 05:47 PM | #4 | |
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08-06-2007, 05:48 PM |
LaurenM |
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08-06-2007, 05:49 PM |
LaurenM |
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08-06-2007, 05:51 PM | #5 |
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No need to get sarcastic just because my cat pics pwn u like a n00b. My take on that line is that it can be taken one of two ways, I don't see the song as sexually charged at all.
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08-06-2007, 05:52 PM | #6 |
Chilly Eskimo
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I don’t know what it’s like in the states but over here I don’t see any division between men using women and women using men. For some strange reason all the men my age round here want relationships whereas the women don’t. The girls I know prefer to just "see" a guy which means that basically they shag for about three months and then the girl sods him off and find someone else. It’s definitely men who are the disposable sex. Men are expected to do many things nowadays as well, were expected to be kind, considerate and treat women as equals which is a good thing. Then again however you still hear "typical man" "that's a man's job" and other such derogatory phrases again used all the time over common media. Just look at UK programs like Loose Women where they just rip into men as a species daily. If this was done nowadays by a group of men on mainstream TV there would be uproar but its fine for women to do it. The same applies o any group of people who have been persecuted. Women can get away with being openly sexist now; racism towards white people from ethnic minorities is tolerated and even praised in such forms as music. Just because things used to be bad doesn’t make it acceptable and turn the tables now, two wrongs don’t make a right.
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08-06-2007, 05:53 PM | #7 | |
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08-06-2007, 05:54 PM | #8 | |
Chilly Eskimo
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08-06-2007, 06:01 PM |
LaurenM |
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08-06-2007, 06:08 PM | #9 |
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You will always get sick men in society Lauren (and women may I add). Unless you start going around cutting off their balls or shooting them in the face you won't get rid of even part of the problem. Is it hereditary? Is it an outcome of social circumstances? Who knows. There's evidence to support both camps. But the fact is, if your little sister goes out wearing a mini-skirt and lipgloss at night, by herself, and happens to walk past a paedo, what do you think is going to happen? At the end of the day if your sister feels like she HAS to wear makeup and whatever, then that's her choice. Society makes no-one comform, you can be who you want to be, and that choice is up to you.
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08-06-2007, 06:56 PM | #10 |
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Wow, this is quite the interesting topic. See Damien, you see what you did? I hope you feel responsible and have learned your lesson Mister. Give it a break people. Women vs. Men and Men vs. Women has been such a strong topic for centuries and bickering about on a forum really won't settle anything. You say we live in a patriarchal society now? Lauren this thing has been going on for ages and it especially took full force when Caesar converted his entire nation from Paganism to Christianity. Their old gods were replace by new gods and the dominance of man was justified in their eyes. These Pagans worshiped female spirits and goddesses and were completely content with their beliefs. And look at Middle Eastern/Asian cultures, they abide by the same patriarchal ideals and given that the Chinese have the longest documented history this should come as no surprise. But look at the issue at hand, Damien isn't to blame for an opinion in which you think he is being oppressive to women. You ever listen to Trent Reznor's "Closer"? Give that a try and see what you think.
By the way, I do agree that women are also equal opportunists in this oppressive game of gender rules. And look, acknowledging that a problem exists is a simple task at best. But what are YOU doing to change things? People talk and talk and talk until they run out of breath and then do the same thing the next day when a more controversial topic arises. Find a solution and stop wasting your time on psuedo-progress. Edit: I love FACE!!! Your cat is absolutely adorable! I love the serious look as it has quite the human resemblance, Alfred Hitchcock anyone? Last edited by Valentino; 08-06-2007 at 07:03 PM. |
08-06-2007, 07:17 PM | #11 |
Intello
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nice to see some deep threads today..
Perhaps you could find this sans-demoralization society in a utopia of your own? It won't exist. Dry humour permits even the sickest of men (and women) to vent their obscenities on the opposite sex. I'd go as far to say that men have slain women more in the past...but instead of this disappearing, women are just starting to throw it right back? Can't pretend i haven't heard from a friend or a sister after a serious break-up "All men are bastards". As the French say Ca m'fait chier! Although, heres hoping that equality in the workplace improves, because thats a one-way problem. Men still dominate female-staffed workplaces. I also hope that the average wage for improves to rival that of men and that men stop using their ding-dong to choose who they hire.
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08-06-2007, 07:28 PM | #12 |
Chilly Eskimo
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Imagine if men technically used there ding-dong to choose who they hire, that would be awesome
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08-06-2007, 07:32 PM | #13 |
Eskimontologist
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To get back on the topic of Face: Yes, it is obsessive and abusive, but its not a description of a view of Damien (hopefully), it is a description of a feeling that can occur to anyone in a certain situation. We can all feel like this, but for the majority, it is just a fleeting thought. There are situations where you want to humiliate someone, to feel your dominance, but this doesn't mean you mean it, it just 'came up', and the song is about this: a man, and a woman, the man is madly in love, but he feels really angry and probably jealous, and wants to take revenge for a real or imagined act against him. There are some, who live this, and in that case, its certainly not good, but that is something completely different.
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08-06-2007, 08:00 PM | #14 | |
The girl from Venezuela
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Great topic, very interesting indeed!
I agree that The song "Face" does have sexual reference, for sure was the first thing that i thought when i heard it. But i definately DONT think its demeaning or humiliating to women or whatever, i see it as merely a song about obssesive love/infatuation whichever you may choose ! If you really listen to the song is more about a thought and yes it says to "bend pretend, Shut your face again ... etc" but it also says : "The only one that you know I wanna live, wanna die, wanna grow old with you I wanna be the only one that you know 'Cause I adore you I do yeah" If you ask me those are beautiful lyrics. Its a moment of frustration (well thats not the proper word! )... maybe just jealousy while realizing that He adores her! ... and can't have her! Quote:
we're fed up by the media everyday we (women) are encouraging men to accept no less than what we're trying to be like! (on to the porn thread)
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08-06-2007, 08:06 PM | #15 |
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I can't say I have a complete and clear explanation of what the song means but I'm wondering what your (Lauren, or anyone else) take on this part is.
The only one that you know I wanna live, don't wanna die, wanna grow old with you I wanna be the only one that you know 'Cause I adore you I do yeah For me the song is about the kind of hate for someone that can only come when you obsesively love them. Does that make sense? It's not about degrading women, or any specific woman, for degradation's sake, but feeling wronged by someone you love and sort of imagining revenge. I don't know if that's actually what i think, i just can't think of the right words. Last edited by viv; 08-06-2007 at 10:45 PM. |
08-06-2007, 08:31 PM | #16 |
Insane Eskimo
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^ Agree 100%. He's just very angry at this particular girl, not at the whole female population of the world. And it's a love/hate thing, as evindeced by the chorus, which is a recurrent topic in most of Damien songs, like the F**k You, F**k You, Love You bit in Rootless Tree...
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08-06-2007, 08:49 PM | #17 |
Eskimo, baby
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You're right lauren, its obviously a rational conclusion to draw from those twelve words that damien rice is a chauvanistic sexual deviant who is addicted to violent and degrading porn (because thats the sort that everybody watches) and is completely incapable of feeling any geniune and sincere emotions. Ever. Like anyone who's ever watched porn. Ever.
I would say that you could be reading into this too much... many of damien's songs are reasonably cryptic and are open to many interpretations- look at various boards on this forum. I think that you're imposing your views on the lyrics somewhat heavily, using emotionally loaded words excessively to try and add weight to your argument. |
08-06-2007, 09:45 PM | #18 | |
eskimo friend
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08-06-2007, 09:48 PM | #19 | |
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I've heard several versions of this great song and I think everytime he's said it this way. Oh well, I'm not trying to be chauvinistic or anything by correcting you Viv. I guess it's just a love/hate thing and we'll all move on. |
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08-06-2007, 09:57 PM | #20 |
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How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
Seven. One to change the light bulb, three to protest the offense committed by the light bulb in regards to the socket, two to secretly wish they were the socket, and one to secretly wish she was the light bulb. (I would also have accepted: Nobody knows. But everyone knows that women and minorities will suffer more than anyone else because it's dark.) What an absurd thread...
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08-06-2007, 10:19 PM | #21 | |
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You are correct, and I knew that I just copied and pasted what was previously posted without reading it cause i'm lazy. I hope your chauvinistis coment was sarcastic, as I'm actually defending the song as NOT being chauvinistic. |
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08-06-2007, 10:23 PM | #22 | |
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08-06-2007, 10:26 PM | #23 | |
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i thought the same thing.
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08-06-2007, 10:59 PM |
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08-06-2007, 11:01 PM | #24 | |||
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also, you have no concrete knowledge that this is what the song means, like with all other Damien songs. Better have her on her knees could simply mean i want to f*ck her doggy style, or I want her to give me a blow job. That isn't degrading as long as it's consensual. The 'how I know go bow end send mend bend pretend' part - you don't know for sure he is talking about her. After all, the line begins 'how I" which would imply he's talking about himself. Seriously, just calm down about the whole thing. I do agree that a lot of the time women are violated and degraded both in porn and real life. But I can't stand this attitude that some people have that everything that ever exists is demeaning to them. It's an extreme feminist view and it's ridiculous. Quote:
"I want to live, don't want to die, I want to grow old with you." "I adore you" All seems pretty nice. Quote:
Lauren, you just seem to be ignoring the points that everyone is making, and repeating your view in a different way rather than responding with your arguments to specific points from the opposing view. It alarms me that you are so deadset on this view that you refuse to listen to any kind of reason. I hope that maybe you can see from people's responses here and in the other thread that watching porn is a hell of a lot more commonplace and normal than you seemed to think. I am curious to know what you think of the songs - woman like a man, and of Closer?
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08-06-2007, 11:21 PM | #25 | |
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Also, I find it very amusing and hypocritical when you say the media etc portrays women in an unrealistic and implausible way - because whilst I agree with you, the majority of your avatars are of you posing and looking exactly how you say you shouldn't try to.
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08-06-2007, 11:27 PM | #26 |
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i agree, lauren seems to have gone overboard here, you say its degrading to all women, when you have no solid proof that the lyrics are degrading at all.
dont be so defensive and paranoid, why are you so willing to jump right into a "treat women right" argument just because of some lyrics youve seen and formed your own opinion on them. are you really helping your cause by bringing up this issue before you even know its grounds? id say its reactions like this that is causing the biggest problem with the whole women vs man issue, your so quick to turn yourself into a victim that you are blind to see that no-one is enforcing you to do so. as for the whole women thing, times have changed, its not as bad as it used to be, and to be perfectly honest i dont see the reason in some of the things that that has happened due to this argument, like golf for example. Women cause a massive uproar when they arent allowed to play with men, so much so that they even succeed in their battle and play alongside men in their tournements, but can a man play in a womens tournement? oooooooohhhh god no, thats simply unthinkable! anyone see the sense in that? but whatever, thats a different issue, im done here, sleepy time.
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08-06-2007, 11:59 PM | #27 | ||
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08-07-2007, 01:46 AM |
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08-07-2007, 01:59 AM | #28 | |
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Thanks to all the kind, generous eskimos who took the time to donate a limb to the 'HELP NINE GET A BODY FUND.' I am now in full working order. Last edited by Nine; 08-07-2007 at 02:04 AM. |
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08-07-2007, 02:08 AM |
LaurenM |
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08-07-2007, 02:15 AM | #29 | |
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Whilst I agree with you that clothes look better on someone who looks unfathomably good in comparison to normal women, and whilst I also agree that the way the media portray women is wrong, what you're saying is so hypocritical. Can you honestly not see that by looking unrealistic yourself, (by unrealistic i mean not like a bog standard woman) and having photographs of you looking unrealistic whilst wearing clothes, shampoo, lip balm (exactly what you said you didn't want your younger sister seeing forced down her throat) - you are adding to the problem of the media portraying women unrealistically. It's really not a complex concept to grasp - and I don't get why you can't understand it. Let me put it simply: You say the problem is the media showing women unrealistically. You model for pictures used in the media, looking like an unrealistic woman. Do you see my point here??!
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Thanks to all the kind, generous eskimos who took the time to donate a limb to the 'HELP NINE GET A BODY FUND.' I am now in full working order. |
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08-07-2007, 02:19 AM |
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08-07-2007, 02:24 AM | #30 | |
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