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Old 08-06-2007, 05:34 PM   #1
viv
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Default Is Face degrading/humiliating/abusive etc...

In another thread a poster has criticized Face for being anti-woman, degrading, oppressive etc..... (I invite her....Lauren to explain for herself so I'm not putting words in her mouth) This take on the song struck me as a bit extreme and I'm wondering how some the rest of you feel.

By the way, I LOVE FACE!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:30 PM
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:43 PM
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:44 PM   #2
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I think women get men to do things that demean them as much as men do it to women, for sure where I live I defintally think that its the women who have control over things.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:46 PM   #3
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Just because he talks about a woman on her knees, doesn't mean that she's doing what you're implying. She could be doing many things, praying, pledging allegiance etc.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:46 PM
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:47 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurenBledsoe
Can you give examples of what you have witnessed specifically?

Also, I do agree that some women are abusive to men as well, however it is a drastically smaller number of women in comparison to so many men.
Again another sweeping generalization.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:48 PM
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:49 PM
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:51 PM   #5
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No need to get sarcastic just because my cat pics pwn u like a n00b. My take on that line is that it can be taken one of two ways, I don't see the song as sexually charged at all.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:52 PM   #6
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I don’t know what it’s like in the states but over here I don’t see any division between men using women and women using men. For some strange reason all the men my age round here want relationships whereas the women don’t. The girls I know prefer to just "see" a guy which means that basically they shag for about three months and then the girl sods him off and find someone else. It’s definitely men who are the disposable sex. Men are expected to do many things nowadays as well, were expected to be kind, considerate and treat women as equals which is a good thing. Then again however you still hear "typical man" "that's a man's job" and other such derogatory phrases again used all the time over common media. Just look at UK programs like Loose Women where they just rip into men as a species daily. If this was done nowadays by a group of men on mainstream TV there would be uproar but its fine for women to do it. The same applies o any group of people who have been persecuted. Women can get away with being openly sexist now; racism towards white people from ethnic minorities is tolerated and even praised in such forms as music. Just because things used to be bad doesn’t make it acceptable and turn the tables now, two wrongs don’t make a right.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:53 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurenBledsoe
it is not a generalization. it is truth. we live in a rape culture.
And women don't attack and rape men, of course not. Just like black people aren't racist towards white people. *sigh* Did you know in the UK last year, there were more cases of domestic violence from women on men, than the other way around? I guess not..
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurenBledsoe
it is not a generalization. it is truth. we live in a rape culture.
What the hell does that mean, thats just a stupid thing to say. Its not like rape has turned up over the last 50 years due to pornography and Damien Rice lyrics is it.
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Old 08-06-2007, 07:01 PM
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Old 08-06-2007, 07:08 PM   #9
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You will always get sick men in society Lauren (and women may I add). Unless you start going around cutting off their balls or shooting them in the face you won't get rid of even part of the problem. Is it hereditary? Is it an outcome of social circumstances? Who knows. There's evidence to support both camps. But the fact is, if your little sister goes out wearing a mini-skirt and lipgloss at night, by herself, and happens to walk past a paedo, what do you think is going to happen? At the end of the day if your sister feels like she HAS to wear makeup and whatever, then that's her choice. Society makes no-one comform, you can be who you want to be, and that choice is up to you.

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Old 08-06-2007, 07:56 PM   #10
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Wow, this is quite the interesting topic. See Damien, you see what you did? I hope you feel responsible and have learned your lesson Mister. Give it a break people. Women vs. Men and Men vs. Women has been such a strong topic for centuries and bickering about on a forum really won't settle anything. You say we live in a patriarchal society now? Lauren this thing has been going on for ages and it especially took full force when Caesar converted his entire nation from Paganism to Christianity. Their old gods were replace by new gods and the dominance of man was justified in their eyes. These Pagans worshiped female spirits and goddesses and were completely content with their beliefs. And look at Middle Eastern/Asian cultures, they abide by the same patriarchal ideals and given that the Chinese have the longest documented history this should come as no surprise. But look at the issue at hand, Damien isn't to blame for an opinion in which you think he is being oppressive to women. You ever listen to Trent Reznor's "Closer"? Give that a try and see what you think.

By the way, I do agree that women are also equal opportunists in this oppressive game of gender rules. And look, acknowledging that a problem exists is a simple task at best. But what are YOU doing to change things? People talk and talk and talk until they run out of breath and then do the same thing the next day when a more controversial topic arises. Find a solution and stop wasting your time on psuedo-progress.

Edit: I love FACE!!!



Your cat is absolutely adorable! I love the serious look as it has quite the human resemblance, Alfred Hitchcock anyone?


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Old 08-06-2007, 08:17 PM   #11
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nice to see some deep threads today..

Perhaps you could find this sans-demoralization society in a utopia of your own?
It won't exist. Dry humour permits even the sickest of men (and women) to vent their obscenities on the opposite sex. I'd go as far to say that men have slain women more in the past...but instead of this disappearing, women are just starting to throw it right back?

Can't pretend i haven't heard from a friend or a sister after a serious break-up "All men are bastards". As the French say Ca m'fait chier!

Although, heres hoping that equality in the workplace improves, because thats a one-way problem. Men still dominate female-staffed workplaces.
I also hope that the average wage for improves to rival that of men and that men stop using their ding-dong to choose who they hire.
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Old 08-06-2007, 08:28 PM   #12
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Imagine if men technically used there ding-dong to choose who they hire, that would be awesome
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Old 08-06-2007, 08:32 PM   #13
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To get back on the topic of Face: Yes, it is obsessive and abusive, but its not a description of a view of Damien (hopefully), it is a description of a feeling that can occur to anyone in a certain situation. We can all feel like this, but for the majority, it is just a fleeting thought. There are situations where you want to humiliate someone, to feel your dominance, but this doesn't mean you mean it, it just 'came up', and the song is about this: a man, and a woman, the man is madly in love, but he feels really angry and probably jealous, and wants to take revenge for a real or imagined act against him. There are some, who live this, and in that case, its certainly not good, but that is something completely different.
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Old 08-06-2007, 09:00 PM   #14
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Great topic, very interesting indeed!

I agree that The song "Face" does have sexual reference, for sure was the first thing that i thought when i heard it. But i definately DONT think its demeaning or humiliating to women or whatever, i see it as merely a song about obssesive love/infatuation whichever you may choose !
If you really listen to the song is more about a thought and yes it says to "bend pretend, Shut your face again ... etc" but it also says :

"The only one that you know
I wanna live, wanna die, wanna grow old with you
I wanna be the only one that you know
'Cause I adore you
I do yeah"

If you ask me those are beautiful lyrics. Its a moment of frustration (well thats not the proper word! )... maybe just jealousy while realizing that He adores her! ... and can't have her!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurenBledsoe
however this is a predominately patriarchal society. i see girls being "sexed up" from an early age. i dont want my 5th grader sister to think she has to wear lipgloss, wear a mini skirt and act stupid for a boy to like her, which is basically what she is taught every day.
Dont think this is true, IN MY OPINION "a certain Body image" these days is mostly promoted by women themselves not by men. By abiding by the "rules"
we're fed up by the media everyday we (women) are encouraging men to accept no less than what we're trying to be like!



(on to the porn thread)
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Old 08-06-2007, 09:06 PM   #15
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I can't say I have a complete and clear explanation of what the song means but I'm wondering what your (Lauren, or anyone else) take on this part is.

The only one that you know
I wanna live, don't wanna die, wanna grow old with you
I wanna be the only one that you know
'Cause I adore you
I do yeah

For me the song is about the kind of hate for someone that can only come when you obsesively love them. Does that make sense? It's not about degrading women, or any specific woman, for degradation's sake, but feeling wronged by someone you love and sort of imagining revenge. I don't know if that's actually what i think, i just can't think of the right words.

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Old 08-06-2007, 09:31 PM   #16
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^ Agree 100%. He's just very angry at this particular girl, not at the whole female population of the world. And it's a love/hate thing, as evindeced by the chorus, which is a recurrent topic in most of Damien songs, like the F**k You, F**k You, Love You bit in Rootless Tree...
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Old 08-06-2007, 09:49 PM   #17
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You're right lauren, its obviously a rational conclusion to draw from those twelve words that damien rice is a chauvanistic sexual deviant who is addicted to violent and degrading porn (because thats the sort that everybody watches) and is completely incapable of feeling any geniune and sincere emotions. Ever. Like anyone who's ever watched porn. Ever.

I would say that you could be reading into this too much... many of damien's songs are reasonably cryptic and are open to many interpretations- look at various boards on this forum. I think that you're imposing your views on the lyrics somewhat heavily, using emotionally loaded words excessively to try and add weight to your argument.
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Old 08-06-2007, 10:45 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viv
I can't say I have a complete and clear explanation of what the song means but I'm wondering what your (Lauren, or anyone else) take on this part is.

The only one that you know
I wanna live, wanna die, wanna grow old with you
I wanna be the only one that you know
'Cause I adore you
I do yeah

For me the song is about the kind of hate for someone that can only come when you obsesively love them. Does that make sense? It's not about degrading women, or any specific woman, for degradation's sake, but feeling wronged by someone you love and sort of imagining revenge. I don't know if that's actually what i think, i just can't think of the right words.
I completely agree with that.......love it
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Old 08-06-2007, 10:48 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viv
The only one that you know
I wanna live, wanna die, wanna grow old with you
I wanna be the only one that you know
'Cause I adore you
I do yeah
You know, I thought it was "I wanna live, don't wanna die, wanna grow old with you..."

I've heard several versions of this great song and I think everytime he's said it this way. Oh well, I'm not trying to be chauvinistic or anything by correcting you Viv. I guess it's just a love/hate thing and we'll all move on.
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Old 08-06-2007, 10:57 PM   #20
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How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Seven. One to change the light bulb, three to protest the offense committed by the light bulb in regards to the socket, two to secretly wish they were the socket, and one to secretly wish she was the light bulb.

(I would also have accepted: Nobody knows. But everyone knows that women and minorities will suffer more than anyone else because it's dark.)

What an absurd thread...
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Old 08-06-2007, 11:19 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valentino
You know, I thought it was "I wanna live, don't wanna die, wanna grow old with you..."

I've heard several versions of this great song and I think everytime he's said it this way. Oh well, I'm not trying to be chauvinistic or anything by correcting you Viv. I guess it's just a love/hate thing and we'll all move on.

You are correct, and I knew that I just copied and pasted what was previously posted without reading it cause i'm lazy. I hope your chauvinistis coment was sarcastic, as I'm actually defending the song as NOT being chauvinistic.
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Old 08-06-2007, 11:23 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Closing_Doors
What an absurd thread...
I just wanted to discuss the meaning of the song (which i don't think is an absurd thing to do) becuase it had, in my opinion, been grossly misintrpreted by someone else in another thread, but for all i knew the majority could have felt the same.
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Old 08-06-2007, 11:26 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valentino
You know, I thought it was "I wanna live, don't wanna die, wanna grow old with you..."

:

i thought the same thing.
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Old 08-06-2007, 11:59 PM
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Old 08-07-2007, 12:01 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurenBledsoe
How I know
Go bow end send mend bend pretend
Shut your face again
Bleed seed need read breath on my knees
How I choose to breath
Lie cry learn grow slow fall stall
How I build my wall
Hate wait bait kiss or taste the place
And make weather in my face

The only one that you know
I wanna live, wanna die, wanna grow old with you
I wanna be the only one that you know
'Cause I adore you
I do yeah

How I choose bruise loose win sin bin tease please
Better have her on her knees


These lyrics depict a woman bending to the sexual desires of a man. It is not the sexual acts implied that I find offensive, it is the way the woman depicted is expected to "pretend" she enjoys this. Damien depicts the patriarchal value of women when he states "better have her on her knees." This is repulsive. Deriving pleasure from the humiliation and domination of women is extremely offensive. A woman is not of lesser value than a man, and fantasizing about a woman being, for lack of better terms, slave-like, is offensive and reduces the value of women to less than human. Today's patriarchal culture gives the impression that women should look a certain way and act a certain way. This is reinforced when Damien says "Shut your face again." Women are not to be told not speak so that men can get what they want and not be troubled by the reality of the cruelty with which men can and many times do treat women.

It deeply saddens me that even our sensitive, romantic poet exudes the brain power of a patriarchal drone when it comes to the subject of sexuality.

All I ask is that women be treated as fully human, rather than the oppressed victims of a culture with distorted patriarchal values.

P.S. to all girls-
Take note of how men will try to convince you to do things that will make them respect you less. We deserve to be treated as equals.
Taking what you've said here and what you've said int he other thread about porn - i really think you have completely warped views about it all. You're taking everything so seriously and generalising so much. -

also, you have no concrete knowledge that this is what the song means, like with all other Damien songs. Better have her on her knees could simply mean i want to f*ck her doggy style, or I want her to give me a blow job. That isn't degrading as long as it's consensual.

The 'how I know go bow end send mend bend pretend' part - you don't know for sure he is talking about her. After all, the line begins 'how I" which would imply he's talking about himself.

Seriously, just calm down about the whole thing. I do agree that a lot of the time women are violated and degraded both in porn and real life. But I can't stand this attitude that some people have that everything that ever exists is demeaning to them. It's an extreme feminist view and it's ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurenBledsoe
yeah that's true! i mean damien rarely talks about sex anyways...yeah you are probably right...given the sexual lyrics of the entire song...he is probably talking about her praying...seriously?
What makes you so completely sure that the song is so completely sexual?

"I want to live, don't want to die, I want to grow old with you." "I adore you"

All seems pretty nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy
I don’t know what it’s like in the states but over here I don’t see any division between men using women and women using men. For some strange reason all the men my age round here want relationships whereas the women don’t. The girls I know prefer to just "see" a guy which means that basically they shag for about three months and then the girl sods him off and find someone else. It’s definitely men who are the disposable sex. Men are expected to do many things nowadays as well, were expected to be kind, considerate and treat women as equals which is a good thing. Then again however you still hear "typical man" "that's a man's job" and other such derogatory phrases again used all the time over common media. Just look at UK programs like Loose Women where they just rip into men as a species daily. If this was done nowadays by a group of men on mainstream TV there would be uproar but its fine for women to do it. The same applies o any group of people who have been persecuted. Women can get away with being openly sexist now; racism towards white people from ethnic minorities is tolerated and even praised in such forms as music. Just because things used to be bad doesn’t make it acceptable and turn the tables now, two wrongs don’t make a right.
You are so right, m'boy.

Lauren, you just seem to be ignoring the points that everyone is making, and repeating your view in a different way rather than responding with your arguments to specific points from the opposing view.

It alarms me that you are so deadset on this view that you refuse to listen to any kind of reason. I hope that maybe you can see from people's responses here and in the other thread that watching porn is a hell of a lot more commonplace and normal than you seemed to think.

I am curious to know what you think of the songs - woman like a man, and of Closer?
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Old 08-07-2007, 12:21 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurenBledsoe

however this is a predominately patriarchal society. i see girls being "sexed up" from an early age. i dont want my 5th grader sister to think she has to wear lipgloss, wear a mini skirt and act stupid for a boy to like her, which is basically what she is taught every day.

Also, I find it very amusing and hypocritical when you say the media etc portrays women in an unrealistic and implausible way - because whilst I agree with you, the majority of your avatars are of you posing and looking exactly how you say you shouldn't try to.
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Old 08-07-2007, 12:27 AM   #26
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i agree, lauren seems to have gone overboard here, you say its degrading to all women, when you have no solid proof that the lyrics are degrading at all.

dont be so defensive and paranoid, why are you so willing to jump right into a "treat women right" argument just because of some lyrics youve seen and formed your own opinion on them. are you really helping your cause by bringing up this issue before you even know its grounds? id say its reactions like this that is causing the biggest problem with the whole women vs man issue, your so quick to turn yourself into a victim that you are blind to see that no-one is enforcing you to do so.

as for the whole women thing, times have changed, its not as bad as it used to be, and to be perfectly honest i dont see the reason in some of the things that that has happened due to this argument, like golf for example. Women cause a massive uproar when they arent allowed to play with men, so much so that they even succeed in their battle and play alongside men in their tournements, but can a man play in a womens tournement? oooooooohhhh god no, thats simply unthinkable! anyone see the sense in that?

but whatever, thats a different issue, im done here, sleepy time.
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Old 08-07-2007, 12:59 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viv
I just wanted to discuss the meaning of the song (which i don't think is an absurd thing to do) becuase it had, in my opinion, been grossly misintrpreted by someone else in another thread, but for all i knew the majority could have felt the same.
I don't think it's absurd to discuss the meaning of the song, I meant that the direction the thread had taken was absurd. My apologies...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine
The 'how I know go bow end send mend bend pretend' part - you don't know for sure he is talking about her. After all, the line begins 'how I" which would imply he's talking about himself.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:46 AM
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:59 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurenBledsoe
hmm sorry, but did i ever say a woman should not be beautiful? i can respect myself and be a feminist without chopping off my hair and not shaving my legs just to prove a point. i have modelled for about 2 years now, and being in the best physical shape i can be in is part of my job . and sorry, but do i have my legs spread open and my finger in my mouth in any of my avatars? hmm no. feminists can be feminine too.
Argh. You make no sense!! How can you say you hate the way the media portray women as sex objects, and say that people are endorsing rape by watching porn, when you then say you have to be in 'the best physical shape' to model?! Surely by doing a job that demands you as a woman look a certain way, (a way, I might add, that does not portray the typical shape of the majority of females in existence) so that people can take photos of you and use them for whatever they are used for in some form of MEDIA, you are completely going against everything you say you stand for and supporting what you say is wrong!
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Old 08-07-2007, 03:08 AM
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Old 08-07-2007, 03:15 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurenBledsoe
you dont seem to grasp what it is i do. i sell clothes. i put on clothes and get my picture taken in them. or shampoo or lip balm, whatever. i sell a product by trying to make it look the best it can. tell me, if you were a designer and wanted your clothes to look good on a person in an advert, would you put it on someone with 10 extra pounds or someone that is in top physical shape? it is a business, not something that is meant to make people feel content.
I don't know if it's your age or something - but what you're saying is so... ignorant. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but it really is.

Whilst I agree with you that clothes look better on someone who looks unfathomably good in comparison to normal women, and whilst I also agree that the way the media portray women is wrong, what you're saying is so hypocritical.

Can you honestly not see that by looking unrealistic yourself, (by unrealistic i mean not like a bog standard woman) and having photographs of you looking unrealistic whilst wearing clothes, shampoo, lip balm (exactly what you said you didn't want your younger sister seeing forced down her throat) - you are adding to the problem of the media portraying women unrealistically. It's really not a complex concept to grasp - and I don't get why you can't understand it.

Let me put it simply:

You say the problem is the media showing women unrealistically.
You model for pictures used in the media, looking like an unrealistic woman.

Do you see my point here??!
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Thanks to all the kind, generous eskimos who took the time to donate a limb to the 'HELP NINE GET A BODY FUND.' I am now in full working order.
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Old 08-07-2007, 03:19 AM
LaurenM
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Old 08-07-2007, 03:24 AM   #30
viv
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurenBledsoe
for the record, i edited out that first part of my post cause it is rude and i respect you more than that. you just made me rather heated for a few minutes! anyway, i dont understand what you mean. how is it that i am portraying an unrealistic woman when it is me and i am very real???
I think nine left but what I think he's (?) saying is that models are unrealistic becuase they do not look like the average woman. The average woman is like a size 8-12 or something and the average model is........ well something much smaller (i'm not sure of the specific numbers here) So since models don't represent most women they are unrealistic portrayals of woman. And to go further, men might look at these models and think their girlfriends/wives should look like them/dress like them and is that not somewhat degrading in the same way you are saying porn is? That's just my interpretation of what nine was saying. I could be wrong.
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