Is Face degrading/humiliating/abusive etc...

[Nine]

Originally Posted by LaurenBledsoe

for the record, i edited out that first part of my post cause it is rude and i respect you more than that. you just made me rather heated for a few minutes! anyway, i dont understand what you mean. how is it that i am portraying an unrealistic woman when it is me and i am very real???

Ok, when I say unrealistic, obviously you ARE human and real and all that! But so are all the other women portrayed in the media yes? What I mean when I use the term 'unrealistic,' is in the context of the rest of the world. As in, beautiful woman in peak physical shape with amazing bodies are not an accurate portrayal of the majority of women who exist.

All women portrayed in the media are 'unrealistically beautiful' - by that I don't mean they are not real people, they obviously are, but they do not represent the norm. You see what I mean?

Now I understand that you shouldn't be penalized for having a good body and of course you should be allowed to model - but when you argue that you don't like the way the media portrays women, and then actually pose for those pictures yourself, you are endorsing what you say you don't agree with.
That's a fact.

Especially as you implied the only reason you were in the best physical condition was because 'it's your job' - that is saying that society demands you look perfect, so you do - which is giving in to what you say you don't agree with.

[Nine]

Originally Posted by viv

I think nine left but what I think he's (?) saying is that models are unrealistic becuase they do not look like the average woman. The average woman is like a size 8-12 or something and the average model is........ well something much smaller (i'm not sure of the specific numbers here) So since models don't represent most women they are unrealistic portrayals of woman. And to go further, men might look at these models and think their girlfriends/wives should look like them/dress like them and is that not somewhat degrading in the same way you are saying porn is? That's just my interpretation of what nine was saying. I could be wrong.

I'm a She hehe

And yep, that is exactly what I was trying to say

[Nine]

Originally Posted by LaurenBledsoe

alright i completely understand what you are saying thanks to your last post and viv's post. and yes, i do admit, it is wrong for people to think they have to look a certain way, and i am fueling that problem. however, i think i am promoting a healthy lifestyle. if someone wants a good body, then eat healthy and exercise! be disciplined. if you dont, then dont sit around blaming people that do work hard for their bodies for promoting unhealthy body images. im not terrifyingly thin, so all im doing is trying to portray is health and fitness. not starving oneself.

also, modelling is superficial and completely inane. i dont enjoy it that much, but it is something i can do that helps me earn money for college. im going to be a lawyer, and then after that i want to teach at a high school until i die or am forced to retire. i dont want to stay young forever and never get a wrinkle. i look forward to growing old gracefully and the beauty that comes from living a good, long life. trust me, you wont see me looking like one of those women who tries to look 17 at 50. this is not a high moral purpose for me. it is a means for getting an education and living well. why not take advantage of something that is easy and earns a silly amoung of money? now that would be stupid!

awesome.

[Nine]

Originally Posted by viv

In the same vein, I personally don't think models (and i'm not talking about the anorexic runway models here) necessarily depict women unrealistically, apart from the airbrushing and the blindingly white teeth of course. Most of the bodies you see in catalogues and such are or a healthy body type. Just because Americans are getting fat doesn't mean that models should mirror that for the sake of looking "normal." I don't know why I needed to say that.

i would agree.

[viv]

^ do i detect sarcasm?

[viv]

Lauren, just curious what your take on my not-exact-but-as-close-as-I-can-come-interpretation of the song is. Here's my previous post so I don't have to rewrite it.

Originally Posted by viv

I can't say I have a complete and clear explanation of what the song means but I'm wondering what your (Lauren, or anyone else) take on this part is.

The only one that you know
I wanna live, don't wanna die, wanna grow old with you
I wanna be the only one that you know
'Cause I adore you
I do yeah

For me the song is about the kind of hate for someone that can only come when you obsesively love them. Does that make sense? It's not about degrading women, or any specific woman, for degradation's sake, but feeling wronged by someone you love and sort of imagining revenge. I don't know if that's actually what i think, i just can't think of the right words.

[Nine]

Originally Posted by LaurenBledsoe

that part of the song is really sweet and nice, until damien goes off on how "you better have her on her knees." if you interpret this as revenge, that is just as horrifying. vengeance is no excuse for fanatasizing about sexually abusing someone. that type of mentality makes it okay for men to think this way. it is not okay, no matter how pissed off you are.

But Lauren, I think what poeple can't understand is why you seem to be so sure that 'better have her on her knees' HAS to mean sexually abusing someone. That just isn't the case.

I don't know what sexual experience you or anyone else here has obviously, but it doesn't always have to be lovely loving missionary position or whatever - having her on her knees could easily mean her giving him a blow job, or him taking her from behind. Neither of which would be degrading to her as long as it was consensual.

(Also, it isn't necessarily a sexual thing at all, but if it is, it still doens't have to mean sexual abuse.)

[Nine]

Originally Posted by LaurenBledsoe

i completely agree. if it is consensual. however lyrics like "bend, pretend, shut your face again." reinforce my belief that it is indeed about sexual abuse.

this feels like a wild goose chase. we seem to be running after each other on both ends of the forum haha

i think when he says 'bend, pretend,' he's talking about himself and what he does. The line begins 'How I...'

yes it is a bit of a chase. I think I must go to bed now. Night x

[viv]

It seems like you're focused too much on that one line. What if he mean fuguratively/emotionally on her knees. Or it might mean what you're saying but just as an imagined form of revenge. Like saying I'm so pissed at that F*cker I wish he would die! You don't really mean it. I don't think it's unnatural to imagine doing somewhat horrible things to someone in a moment of passionate hate and anger. Seriously wanting to do them is something else.

I'm still not convinced his meaning is as evil as your interpretation of it though. I think the "sweet and nice" part supports that becuase would you write that part about someone you wanted to force oral sex on (or whatever it is you're taking from that line, cause i'm still not completely sure)

[Ships_Were_Sailin]

Originally Posted by LaurenBledsoe

alright i completely understand what you are saying thanks to your last post and viv's post. and yes, i do admit, it is wrong for people to think they have to look a certain way, and i am fueling that problem. however, i think i am promoting a healthy lifestyle. if someone wants a good body, then eat healthy and exercise! be disciplined. if you dont, then dont sit around blaming people that do work hard for their bodies for promoting unhealthy body images. im not terrifyingly thin, so all im doing is trying to portray is health and fitness. not starving oneself.

also, modelling is superficial and completely inane. i dont enjoy it that much, but it is something i can do that helps me earn money for college. im going to be a lawyer, and then after that i want to teach at a high school until i die or am forced to retire. i dont want to stay young forever and never get a wrinkle. i look forward to growing old gracefully and the beauty that comes from living a good, long life. trust me, you wont see me looking like one of those women who tries to look 17 at 50. this is not a high moral purpose for me. it is a means for getting an education and living well. why not take advantage of something that is easy and earns a silly amoung of money? now that would be stupid!

Good post

thats is all

[julia]

I love this song. One of my absolute favorites .I find it sexual but I have never thought of it as demeaning.


I wanna be The only one that you know
I wanna live, don't wanna die, wanna grow old with you
I wanna be the only one that you know
'Cause I adore you
I do yeah


love this..


the rest of it...... I always thought of it as sexy in a Damien sort of way..
Which NEVER offends me..lol..!



cheers guy's.

[Bristlecone]

I'm not sure what to think about this thread. Maybe someone should ask Damien if he hates women, so then you can get up in arms over factual information, rather than interpreting a line from a song that supposedly 'degrades women,' oh Goodness no. Keeping in mind he seems a little peeved in most of his songs in the first place, so pardon him for getting out some offensive emotion every now and again. The truth of anger and sadness is seldom pretty.

Now let's all all try to make Volcano an offensive masterpiece - that 'hurt your knees' line probably means he's getting a blowjob.

[Dean C]

Originally Posted by Closing_Doors

How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Seven. One to change the light bulb, three to protest the offense committed by the light bulb in regards to the socket, two to secretly wish they were the socket, and one to secretly wish she was the light bulb.

(I would also have accepted: Nobody knows. But everyone knows that women and minorities will suffer more than anyone else because it's dark.)

What an absurd thread...

I love that quote. So much so it calls for a lolseal in celebration of anti-feminism (pro-masculinism anyone?):

[Timeé]

I don't listen to this song; because it's terrible and sounds like foul words thrown into a blender that automatically rhymes itself.
It is degrading and makes absolutely no sense to me. I can't relate to it.

[Rue Saint-Denis]

How is it degrading, Tim?

[#Ian#]

Surely anyone offended by the lyrical implications of this song should also be offended by the opening line to Cannonball.

[Lindsay]

Thought I'd add my two cents in defence of Damien....I would be horrified if someone judged me on a few words, and especially when those words are nearly random. A few comments that have been made in another thread..

the song Face endorses the rape of women....it is all based on my personal interpretation of face, but given the conclusive evidence and sexual nature of damien's songs, my interpretation is not far fetched but extremely likely.

Though there may be a sexual nature in his songs I don't think Face endorses the rape of women. Even though I wouldn't ever accuse him of endorsing the rape of women based on a few words ......a few words is not enough and the vast majority of people don't endorse rape..... and since you're considering context with the "sexual nature of his songs" that he would endorse rape.... if I remember correctly...isn't Damien a vegan, or at the very least a vegetarian? And isn't it not necessarily because of health but because of ethical beliefs? That humans should not harm animals...as they have rights and importance as humans do...but he also thinks that he can violate fellow humans and hurt a woman??

i stick by my interpretation until we have truthful insight from the writer himselfjust because i dont have a sworn statement from damien on the meaning of the song does not mean i cannot learn from my own interpretation.[/b]

I really don't think he should be guilty based only on a few words until proven innocent. Intellectual charity can go a long way, giving the author credit for ideas they probably had in mind...but did not express.

edit to clarify.

[Timeé]

its degrading to me to expose my ears to such jumblargo

[Lindsay]

Damien's songs seem to often be obscure, but to me Face seems to be nearly random. This is my interpretation..... though I think my interpretation of the song is in the minority, because while I definitely don't see anything promoting rape, I also don't see much that is angry or vengeful or demeaning.

How I know
Go bow end send mend bend pretend
Shut your face again
This is how he learns things, how he goes through experiences...by ending, sending, mending, etc....and he does not want this woman to criticize him, make fun of him, pressure him...to shut her face

Bleed seed need read breath on my knees
How I choose to breath
This is how he lives or breathes...by bleeding, seeding, needing, reading..

Lie cry learn grow slow fall stall
How I build my wall
How he builds his emotional wall, constucts over time his emotional protection....by lying, crying, learning...

Hate wait bait kiss or taste the place
And make weather in my face
not very sure what "weather in my face means"...but maybe causing aging, maybe causing difficulty, maybe stress because of the things she does to him.

The only one that you know
I wanna live, wanna die, wanna grow old with you
I wanna be the only one that you know
'Cause I adore you
I do yeah

But even though he is all these things, that this is his personality....and he is quite passionate in the song about asserting that this is who he is, similar vein in Coconut skins....he still wants her to accept him, and be committed to him, love him...to me this is what the song is about. But he is quite passionate when singing it, quite forceful, so it seems that maybe he wants both...to stay who he is AND to be with her and be accepted by her...but maybe is be prevented from having it both ways.

How I choose bruise loose win sin bin tease please
Better have her on her knees
This is what his relationship is like with this woman, this is how he acts towards her....but at all times she must be on her knees....maybe sexual ...or maybe on her knees with love for him, so committed to him, so much respect for him

Play pray say rock feel kneel dream
How I choose to scream
His reaction when he is expressing his feelings, when he screams

Shout wake sleep I need to touch her deep
This is his daily routine

Change
Rearrange
Fate wait weight kiss or taste the place
And make weather in my face
Again...relationship issues...how they relate to each other, what happens in their relationship.

Then he repeats.
I could be completely wrong ...just my opinion...any thoughts?

edit- left out "random"

[Lindsay]

Originally Posted by Timeé

its degrading to me to expose my ears to such jumblargo

Disregard then ...just thought it was quite a statement to say someone was endorsing rape

[Bristlecone]

Originally Posted by #Ian#

Surely anyone offended by the lyrical implications of this song should also be offended by the opening line to Cannonball.

You know, now that you mention it, I just listened to the first line of that song and could not go on. I have never been so offended in my entire life.

[Nine]

Originally Posted by Lindsay

Damien's songs seem to often be obscure, but to me Face seems to be nearly. This is my interpretation..... though I think my interpretation of the song is in the minority, because while I definitely don't see anything promoting rape, I also don't see much that is angry or vengeful or demeaning.

How I know
Go bow end send mend bend pretend
Shut your face again
This is how he learns things, how he goes through experiences...by ending, sending, mending, etc....and he does not want this woman to criticize him, make fun of him, pressure him...to shut her face

Bleed seed need read breath on my knees
How I choose to breath
This is how he lives or breathes...by bleeding, seeding, needing, reading..

Lie cry learn grow slow fall stall
How I build my wall
How he builds his emotional wall, constucts over time his emotional protection....by lying, crying, learning...

Hate wait bait kiss or taste the place
And make weather in my face
not very sure what "weather in my face means"...but maybe causing aging, maybe causing difficulty, maybe stress because of the things she does to him.

The only one that you know
I wanna live, wanna die, wanna grow old with you
I wanna be the only one that you know
'Cause I adore you
I do yeah

But even though he is all these things, that this is his personality....and he is quite passionate in the song about asserting that this is who he is, similar vein in Coconut skins....he still wants her to accept him, and be committed to him, love him...to me this is what the song is about. But he is quite passionate when singing it, quite forceful, so it seems that maybe he wants both...to stay who he is AND to be with her and be accepted by her...but maybe is be prevented from having it both ways.

How I choose bruise loose win sin bin tease please
Better have her on her knees
This is what his relationship is like with this woman, this is how he acts towards her....but at all times she must be on her knees....maybe sexual ...or maybe on her knees with love for him, so committed to him, so much respect for him

Play pray say rock feel kneel dream
How I choose to scream
His reaction when he is expressing his feelings, when he screams

Shout wake sleep I need to touch her deep
This is his daily routine

Change
Rearrange
Fate wait weight kiss or taste the place
And make weather in my face
Again...relationship issues...how they relate to each other, what happens in their relationship.

Then he repeats.
I could be completely wrong ...just my opinion...any thoughts?

Fantastic, absolutely fantastic. I'd never thought of it like this. I think i love you, I agree with everything you've ever said on this forum!

[viv]

Originally Posted by Lindsay

Damien's songs seem to often be obscure, but to me Face seems to be nearly. This is my interpretation..... though I think my interpretation of the song is in the minority, because while I definitely don't see anything promoting rape, I also don't see much that is angry or vengeful or demeaning.

How I know
Go bow end send mend bend pretend
Shut your face again
This is how he learns things, how he goes through experiences...by ending, sending, mending, etc....and he does not want this woman to criticize him, make fun of him, pressure him...to shut her face

Bleed seed need read breath on my knees
How I choose to breath
This is how he lives or breathes...by bleeding, seeding, needing, reading..

Lie cry learn grow slow fall stall
How I build my wall
How he builds his emotional wall, constucts over time his emotional protection....by lying, crying, learning...

Hate wait bait kiss or taste the place
And make weather in my face
not very sure what "weather in my face means"...but maybe causing aging, maybe causing difficulty, maybe stress because of the things she does to him.

The only one that you know
I wanna live, wanna die, wanna grow old with you
I wanna be the only one that you know
'Cause I adore you
I do yeah

But even though he is all these things, that this is his personality....and he is quite passionate in the song about asserting that this is who he is, similar vein in Coconut skins....he still wants her to accept him, and be committed to him, love him...to me this is what the song is about. But he is quite passionate when singing it, quite forceful, so it seems that maybe he wants both...to stay who he is AND to be with her and be accepted by her...but maybe is be prevented from having it both ways.

How I choose bruise loose win sin bin tease please
Better have her on her knees
This is what his relationship is like with this woman, this is how he acts towards her....but at all times she must be on her knees....maybe sexual ...or maybe on her knees with love for him, so committed to him, so much respect for him

Play pray say rock feel kneel dream
How I choose to scream
His reaction when he is expressing his feelings, when he screams

Shout wake sleep I need to touch her deep
This is his daily routine

Change
Rearrange
Fate wait weight kiss or taste the place
And make weather in my face
Again...relationship issues...how they relate to each other, what happens in their relationship.

Then he repeats.
I could be completely wrong ...just my opinion...any thoughts?

I always thought it was "make it wetter in my face"
I'm so dirty!

[borneoman]

I think he told the story of the song in a recent show, anyone??? I did listen to it the other day but cannot remember which show it is, I'd say one of shows from last Apr/May in the US...

If I remember correctly he was saying that he wrote the song when he was very young, and that the song is about an obsession, and being too young and obsessed with a person, and that you want her to feel the same way about you, and you want to be the only person that she kisses... ever!!! or something like that...

[Nine]

Originally Posted by borneoman

I think he told the story of the song in a recent show, anyone??? I did listen to it the other day but cannot remember which show it is, I'd say one of shows from last Apr/May in the US...

If I remember correctly he was saying that he wrote the song when he was very young, and that the song is about an obsession, and being too young and obsessed with a person, and that you want her to feel the same way about you, and you want to be the only person that she kisses... ever!!! or something like that...

Oh please let's find a recording of him explaining it, it would solve EVERYTHING!
x

[Tommy]

Originally Posted by borneoman

I think he told the story of the song in a recent show, anyone??? I did listen to it the other day but cannot remember which show it is, I'd say one of shows from last Apr/May in the US...

If I remember correctly he was saying that he wrote the song when he was very young, and that the song is about an obsession, and being too young and obsessed with a person, and that you want her to feel the same way about you, and you want to be the only person that she kisses... ever!!! or something like that...

When I asked him he said "Face is a song about how much I love rape and sexual abuse and sexual discrimination and how much I want to lick Laurens face"

Exact words

[Lindsay]

Originally Posted by viv

I always thought it was "make it wetter in my face"
I'm so dirty!

I was just going from the lyrics page, who knows maybe Damien doooes say that
Oh my viv...so so dirty ...but pretty sexy too !

[Bumpman]

Originally Posted by LaurenBledsoe

It deeply saddens me that even our sensitive, romantic poet exudes the brain power of a patriarchal drone when it comes to the subject of sexuality.

I fail to see your point; you claim that his "brain power" is equivalent to that of a "patriarchal drone" because of how he's chosen to describe his sexuality. Could you imagine an instance where someone might write those lyrics in the spirit of self-condemnation? If not, then is it possible that the reason for writing the song is to invite ideological criticism? Or that it's meant to be interpreted from someone other then his perspective? You've read the song entirely at face value. Paying a lot of attention to what he's talking about and very little attention to what he's saying.

A sense of irony leads me to believe that you're the drone. He's the renowned poet.

[babyeskimo]

Originally Posted by Lindsay

Damien's songs seem to often be obscure, but to me Face seems to be nearly. This is my interpretation..... though I think my interpretation of the song is in the minority, because while I definitely don't see anything promoting rape, I also don't see much that is angry or vengeful or demeaning.

How I know
Go bow end send mend bend pretend
Shut your face again
This is how he learns things, how he goes through experiences...by ending, sending, mending, etc....and he does not want this woman to criticize him, make fun of him, pressure him...to shut her face

Bleed seed need read breath on my knees
How I choose to breath
This is how he lives or breathes...by bleeding, seeding, needing, reading..

Lie cry learn grow slow fall stall
How I build my wall
How he builds his emotional wall, constucts over time his emotional protection....by lying, crying, learning...

Hate wait bait kiss or taste the place
And make weather in my face
not very sure what "weather in my face means"...but maybe causing aging, maybe causing difficulty, maybe stress because of the things she does to him.

The only one that you know
I wanna live, wanna die, wanna grow old with you
I wanna be the only one that you know
'Cause I adore you
I do yeah

But even though he is all these things, that this is his personality....and he is quite passionate in the song about asserting that this is who he is, similar vein in Coconut skins....he still wants her to accept him, and be committed to him, love him...to me this is what the song is about. But he is quite passionate when singing it, quite forceful, so it seems that maybe he wants both...to stay who he is AND to be with her and be accepted by her...but maybe is be prevented from having it both ways.

How I choose bruise loose win sin bin tease please
Better have her on her knees
This is what his relationship is like with this woman, this is how he acts towards her....but at all times she must be on her knees....maybe sexual ...or maybe on her knees with love for him, so committed to him, so much respect for him

Play pray say rock feel kneel dream
How I choose to scream
His reaction when he is expressing his feelings, when he screams

Shout wake sleep I need to touch her deep
This is his daily routine

Change
Rearrange
Fate wait weight kiss or taste the place
And make weather in my face
Again...relationship issues...how they relate to each other, what happens in their relationship.

Then he repeats.
I could be completely wrong ...just my opinion...any thoughts?

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Lindsay. Iv'e never really considered the meaning of face fully, but now that i read your interpretation, it really makes sense.

[Livo]

i really doubt it contains anything too abusive, to be honest. i mean a lot of those words were probably chosen because of the rhyming scheme, more than anything else. and the chorus does kind of defy any statement of an abusive relationship:

"i wanna be the only one that you know, happily your placebo, i wanna be the only one that you know, cos i adore you"

though that is the sorta psychotic jealousy that you expect from a 17-year-old boy in a relationship, i don't think it's anything bad...

nice analysis by everyone else though