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Old 09-26-2007, 02:57 PM   #31
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None of them can stop the time, even with guns.
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Old 09-26-2007, 06:18 PM   #32
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Up to five people were feared dead tonight after Burma’s ruthless military government ordered troops to open fire on crowds of demonstrators.

On the ninth day of huge street protests in Rangoon despite an official ban, the junta resorted to violence having poured troops into the city centre overnight.

Witnesses said Buddhist monks, who have been leading the anti-government marches, were among the dead.

Hundreds of others were hit with tear gas, beaten and dragged away under arrest in convoys of trucks.

The UN Security council is to meet to discuss the situation tonight after the violence was condemned by the EU and the US who called on the Burma’s rulers to stop the violence and open talks with pro-democracy leaders.
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Old 09-26-2007, 08:39 PM   #33
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Its so damn frustrating that I want to help these people somehow, but I simply can't. I'm just blogging.
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Old 09-26-2007, 11:10 PM   #34
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According most sources inside Burma, Suu Kyi is in Insein prison now, which is the most notorious prison in Burma and arguably in the world.

It is wasn't for the backing of China, it is unlikely that the junta would be in power today.

Quote:
WASHINGTON, Sept 26 (Reuters) - The United States pressed China and other allies of Myanmar on Wednesday to use their influence to convince the military junta to ease its harsh policies and stop a crackdown against protesters.

The Bush administration called for Myanmar to use restraint and said it was "very troubled" by reports that two monks and a civilian had been killed as Myanmar security forces tried to quell the biggest protests in 20 years.

State Department spokesman Tom Casey said China, which has close contacts with the military regime and is a key trading partner with Myanmar, should in particular use its sway.

"We want them (China) to use their influence in whatever form they can to get the regime to change its views," Casey said.

Assistant Secretary of State Chris Hill, on a visit to Beijing on Wednesday to discuss North Korea's nuclear program, planned to raise Myanmar during his talks with Chinese officials, Casey said.

"This is a matter of concern for the international community and particularly for Burma's neighbors. We want to see those countries use whatever tools they think appropriate -- diplomatic, economic or otherwise to impact and change the regime's behavior," said Casey. "We call on the government to exercise restraint."

Diplomats say China has privately been speaking with the generals in Myanmar to convey international concern over what is happening there but Beijing has so far refrained from any public criticism. Article Continues Here
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Old 09-27-2007, 06:49 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audity
According most sources inside Burma, Suu Kyi is in Insein prison now, which is the most notorious prison in Burma and arguably in the world.
i'm holding out this crazy hope that she's been transported there for negotiations for her release.. i know it's unlikely but i'm holding onto it anyway..



the junta launched predawn raids on the monasteries and arrested protest leaders

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNe...edName=topNews

i can't believe the UN hasn't stepped in yet. according to that article UN involvement is being blocked by russia and china.
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Old 09-27-2007, 08:20 AM   #36
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/7015544.stm

UN debate

There are no indications yet that the military government is ready to listen to the many calls for restraint being made around the world, says the BBC's South East Asia correspondent Jonathan Head.

On Wednesday, the UN Security Council held an emergency meeting in New York.

The US and European Union wanted the council to consider imposing sanctions - but that was rejected by China as not "helpful".

Instead, council members "expressed their concern vis-a-vis the situation, and have urged restraint, especially from the government of Myanmar," said France's UN ambassador Jean-Maurice Ripert.n

They welcomed a plan to send UN special envoy Ibrahim Gambari to the region, and called on the Burmese authorities to receive him "as soon as possible".

Useless as usual. Could the Chinese ambassador to the Council be tied up, gagged and put into a cupboard for the length of the next meeting? It would help a lot
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Old 09-27-2007, 09:20 AM   #37
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We pray, in the quiet corners of our hearts, all full of knots and nots, that all singers of love songs celebrating our fragile paths can just sing out, be they Buddhist chants or the quiet murmurs of lovers.
How dangerous is Love?
How threatening is Tenderness?.....Ask the Powers that be.
"Cold, cold water surrounds me now".

Walk, sit, chant, love. How terrifying is that?
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Old 09-27-2007, 11:18 AM   #38
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After midnight, security forces arrested Myint Thein, the spokesman for opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi’s political party, family members said.

Unconfirmed reports said other members of the National League for Democracy were also arrested.
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Old 09-27-2007, 11:54 AM   #39
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FLASH:
Reports of soldiers firing automatic weapons into crowds in Rangoon...



SkyNews ticker reporting:

Shots fired over the heads of 70,000 protestors in Rangoon today

Japanese embassy confirms one citizen dead, believed to be a photographer.
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Old 09-27-2007, 11:58 AM   #40
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Euronews showing footage of protests in Seol, Thailand, and Sydney in support of the Burmese people.
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Old 09-27-2007, 05:22 PM   #41
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Official state TV now says 9 dead... so could be a lot higher. And with probably thousands now in prison... who know's what they're going through!
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Old 09-27-2007, 05:26 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheels
Official state TV now says 9 dead... so could be a lot higher. And with probably thousands now in prison... who know's what they're going through!
The main supporters of the reigime are China, India and Thailand... should there be a boycott of their goods? Is it even possible now that nearly everything is made there?

So many Western companies use their cheap labour now... it means governments won't consider ecconomic sanctions against them as it hurts their own companies...

Back in the 60's or 70's grassroots movements could swell up and bring revolution... Now here we are 30/40 years later... with the power of the internet connecting the little people together and yet it's harder to get people to act...
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Old 09-27-2007, 05:37 PM   #43
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you're right whells, it all comes down to money, it's absolutely disgusting


9 have died including the japanese photographer.

yesterday russian and china voted against a resolution by the un's security council that "condemned" the actions of the burmese government, the security council needs a unanimous vote.

pictures (they're very graphic)

link
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Old 09-27-2007, 05:46 PM   #44
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Is that first link showing the Japanese photographer being shot??!
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Old 09-27-2007, 06:05 PM   #45
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yes, the pictures are from the spanish newspaper elmundo.es, they have a correspondent over there in burma
edit: my mistake, the picture is by reuters
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Old 09-27-2007, 06:50 PM   #46
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i'm starting to doubt the effectiveness of nonviolent protests in this case... The thugs that rule the country won't go down willingly. Someone should give them a small nudge, about the size of 7.62 millimeters.
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Old 09-27-2007, 07:03 PM   #47
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isnt the non-violence bit the whole point of the protests though?
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Old 09-27-2007, 07:16 PM   #48
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Yeah, violent behaviour would degrade the protesters down to the regime's level. Even if they kill the good guys, killing them shouldn't be considered an option (at least not the first one )
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Old 09-27-2007, 07:22 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rai
i'm starting to doubt the effectiveness of nonviolent protests in this case... The thugs that rule the country won't go down willingly. Someone should give them a small nudge, about the size of 7.62 millimeters.
I don't like to enter into these debates but this raises an interesting question. What are some of the Eskimo solutions to this problem? I think we all agree that sanctions will do little to nothing and that the peaceful marches seem to be headed towards riots/imprisonment, so what does that leave us? And more specifically, what should the U.S. do about it, since we will be looked upon to provide some type of resolution. If the U.S. does nothing, peaceful protesters will most likely continue to be killed but if we come in with force, we will be scorned for creating more violence. It seems like such a Catch-22.
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Old 09-27-2007, 07:23 PM   #50
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Gotta add Singapore to the list of countries to boycott. And Russia.

And TOTAL from France say they won't stop their exploration in Burma... BOOO!!! Boycott their filling stations etc everyone!
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Old 09-27-2007, 07:27 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northberwick
What are some of the Eskimo solutions to this problem?
Firstly boycott companies that deal with Burma... TOTAL for one.

Also boycott goods made in countries that support the Junta... China, Russia, India, Thailand, Singapore.

Do this LOUDLY. Tell everyone you know to do it. Post on every message board for people to do it. Blog about it.

Write to these companies and tell them you're doing it.

Once the companies see they will lose money they will put pressure on the politicians. It's a sad case that it comes down to that.

The UN should be able to send peacekeepers without a unanimous security council resolution. The countries on the security council rarely agree on ANYthing!
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Old 09-27-2007, 08:09 PM   #52
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My problem with nonviolent protests is that they require a reasonable opposition to be successful. South Africa had Frederik Willem de Klerk, a State President who was just as keen on abolishing apartheid as Mandela and Tutu were and in India, in the end the British were almost pleased to have lost that troublesome piece of land thousands of kilometers from London when the country was in ruins after WWII. The Burmese junta, on the other hand is cornered, brutal, non-democratic and has he firm support of the armed forces. I can't imagine the generals resigning and voluntaringly standing trial for their crimes, its nonsense, and will never happen no matter how many monks parade on the streets. Civil disobedience is also useless against a non-foreign power, the people would juts hurt themselves by non-production.

I think, if a full-blown armed revolution breaks out (which is unlikely because the monks and the population don't have guns), the swift deployment of a foreign fighting force with a proper UN mandate would solve the issue onece and for all. Probably this would be the best possible scenario, judging from the positive experiences from Sierra Leone. There, a small Britis fighting force which easily brought an end to the civil war by destroying the antigovenrmental forces and paved the way for the UN peacekeepers. (read this ) This won't be an Iraq because at least 80% of the population wants the junta out and are united on this cause.

The problem is, that there won't be any fighting to stop, only massacre by the government. Sanctions are almost as useless as the UN and North Korea has been going quite well without Western companies. We can't boycott half of Asia either, because 90% of electronics and the vast majority of clothes, for exampe are made there. Almost everything is made in china/Thailand/Singapore nowadays and we have to wear pants... I have no proper solution for this scenario, I must admit.
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Old 09-27-2007, 08:12 PM   #53
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Question: Does anyone know how loyal the actual soldiers are to the junta? Is there any hope that they will decide to join the protestors?
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Old 09-27-2007, 08:23 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SisterMidnight
there are comments from people in rangoon at the bottom of that article. this one was interesting..

"One reason why the generals are hesitating, may not be merely reverence. Spiritually speaking, if one is a Buddhist, one will clearly know that one of Buddhist's big sin is the physical harming of a monk who had taken the vow. Such bodily harm of a monk will carry the worst penalty of sufferance in hell. From the perspective of a devout Buddhist nation, that maybe the reason for the junta's unwillingness to act, hoping the march will fizzle out on its own. "

these soldiers (and maybe the government) may actually be afraid of burning in hell if they mess with the monks (which i hope they do if they dare..) there's a spiritual energy behind this uprising, you can almost see it in the pictures.. i suggest whatever god/goddess you worship and however you do it - pray. send positive energy to burma. (i'm serious)
it seems that without the monks behind the protests, the repression would be much worse. it's so horrible
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Old 09-28-2007, 03:19 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali
it seems that without the monks behind the protests, the repression would be much worse. it's so horrible
it is horrible.. it's on the news now but a few days before it escalated i was telling everyone i knew about it even though they had no idea about burma, and how i was afraid of bloodshed.. now they think i'm psychic. i would rather have been wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by northberwick
I don't like to enter into these debates but this raises an interesting question. What are some of the Eskimo solutions to this problem? I think we all agree that sanctions will do little to nothing and that the peaceful marches seem to be headed towards riots/imprisonment, so what does that leave us? And more specifically, what should the U.S. do about it, since we will be looked upon to provide some type of resolution. If the U.S. does nothing, peaceful protesters will most likely continue to be killed but if we come in with force, we will be scorned for creating more violence. It seems like such a Catch-22.
damned if you do, damned if you don't.

excellent question but i don't know what the solution would be.. i feel helpless against something like this, because as someone pointed out, these are not reasonable people in power there, they're madmen. other than force i'm not sure what would have an impact on them if their own religious beliefs and holy men don't.

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Old 09-28-2007, 08:01 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindsay
Gosh…. so ridiculous! If the UN can’t handle problems such as these, it’s no wonder why they are so ineffective with shocking emergency crises!
Remeber the farce called League of Nations? It was the predecessor of the UN until it slowly unmade itself due o the realisation that it was useless...

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Originally Posted by Lindsay
Are you referring to the private mercenaries that were hired, because they're the ones who nearly single handedly stopped the war.
Are mercenaries an option … I’ve heard many people shockingly speak quite openingly about the idea in general, but of course there's quite a bit of controversy surrounding something like that.
No, I'm referring to the Parachute Regiment, SAS and Royal Marines during Operation Palliser. The Mercenaries weren't too important in SR, contrary what is suggested by the film Blood Diamond. It was the britis armed forces that stopped the war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindsay
Article:“They welcomed a plan to send UN special envoy Ibrahim Gambari to the region, and called on the Burmese authorities to receive him "as soon as possible".”
What has this guy even been doing!? Too bad their Envoy wasn’t Stephen Lewis….and I wish I was only kidding .
Well, he's a UN envoy, without much authority. It basically doesn't matter if he's in the country or not, he's just there to make the impression of the UN doing something.
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Old 09-28-2007, 12:58 PM   #57
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Burma’s ruthless crackdown on protest marchers appeared to be taking hold today.

Although troops in the capital Rangoon fired warning shots in the air and used clubs to violently break up one group of about 2,000 people, crowds were much smaller than the tens of thousands earlier this week.

The ruling military junta ordered soldiers to occupy key Buddhist monasteries today to confine monks who have lead the anti-government protests.

A no-go zone has been declared around five key Buddhist monasteries

“We were told security forces had the monks under control” and will now turn their attention to civilian protesters, one diplomat said.

And there were also reports that the country’s public internet access has been cut. It has been used to send many of the pictures and much of the information about what is happening there. Foreign journalists are banned from the country.

At least 10 people have been killed in two days of violence in the country’s largest cities, including a Japanese cameraman who was shot when soldiers with automatic rifles fired into crowds yesterday.Bob Davis, Australia’s ambassador to Burma, said he had heard unconfirmed reports that the death toll following two days of violence was “several times” higher.

Hundreds of people have been arrested, taken away in trucks at night or pummelled with batons.

Today’s violence came after about 20 trucks packed with soldiers arrived at the area near Sule Pagoda and announced over loudspeakers, “We give you 10 minutes to move out from the road. Otherwise we will fire.”

A handful of protesters who charged the soldiers were beaten back and the rest suffered the same fate before running away.

Soldiers dispersed the other protesters, beating them with clubs and firing shots in the air.

In other areas of Rangoon security forces moved quickly to disperse small crowds of 200 to 300 almost as soon as they started marching, sealing off at least one area and firing warning shots.

But by Burmese standards, the crackdown has so far been muted, in part because the regime knows that killing monks could trigger a massive angry backlash.

Meanwhile the United Nations’ special envoy to Burma, Ibrahim Gambari, was heading to the country to promote a political solution and could arrive as early as tomorrow, according to reports.
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Old 09-28-2007, 02:57 PM   #58
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I can't even imagine how this could be resolved. If the UN try to move upon this with force then the death toll will be unimaginable and how, in all reality, do you peacefully ask people who are as moralless as to send men to beat and shoot and protestors to stop what they are doing and be nice now please?
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Old 09-28-2007, 03:03 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Benn.
I can't even imagine how this could be resolved. If the UN try to move upon this with force then the death toll will be unimaginable and how, in all reality, do you peacefully ask people who are as moralless as to send men to beat and shoot and protestors to stop what they are doing and be nice now please?
Well bullies tend to be very strong when facing the weak... but not so brave when faced with an equal or superior strength. A strong determined force might not need to fire a single shot.
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Old 09-28-2007, 05:08 PM   #60
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Default Bloggers in Burma keep world informed during military crackdown

Bloggers in Burma keep world informed during military crackdown
Richard S. Ehrlich, Chronicle Foreign Service

Friday, September 28, 2007

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(09-28) 04:00 PDT Bangkok -- Dodging a deadly military crackdown that has killed at least nine protesters, Burmese bloggers are on the front lines, providing news and photos of death and insurrection.

Their Internet blogs, written in Burmese and grammatically flawed English, are posted mostly by residents of Rangoon, the commercial port also known as Yangon, where Buddhist monks, pro-democracy activists and residents have been defying security forces for more than a week.

The bloggers rely on word-of-mouth, cell phones, online chat groups, instant messaging, and firsthand accounts of protesters facing barricaded streets, tear gas and gunfire from Burmese security forces. The best blogs provide photos, video and text updates purportedly by eyewitnesses, which are later confirmed by news organizations or, in some cases, can't be verified.

The nation's military regime has refused to grant visas to foreign correspondents, and has even blocked visa requests for many foreign tourists after the mass uprising worsened this week.

As a result, blogger accounts have captivated the outside world, including President Bush and the United Nations. On Thursday, the Bush administration imposed economic sanctions against 14 senior Burmese officials. On Wednesday, the U.N. Security Council issued a statement of concern about the violent crackdown and said it would send a special envoy to Burma.

Burmese and foreign bloggers in Rangoon, Mandalay, the nation's second-largest city, and elsewhere have risked their lives to document the pro-democracy demonstrations, which began over a fuel price hike in August.

One poignant blog, by a young Burmese woman who identifies herself as Dawn, appears at www.xanga.com/dawn_1o9.

"Around 1:20 or 1:30 p.m., I heard someone saying that the police/army started shooting in the air," Dawn wrote, describing Rangoon on Wednesday.

"At 2:00 p.m., I heard that buses have stopped running on Sule Pagoda Road. Someone from the office went out there, and came running back when there were shots being fired.

"I heard the gun shots too, but it sounded a lot like clapping. So I went out to look.

"I was reading the news on a blogger's Cbox, and it said that at least 5 monks were dead at Shwedagon Pagoda. My sis had already called home and told my brother not to go to work. I called home too, and also to my father. He told me to stay at work and not to go out."

International media reports said at least one person died when security forces attacked protesters Wednesday, though some reports said as many as five people may have been killed that day.

"I'll let you know when I've been shot," Dawn continued. "I'll ask someone before I die to blog about it. If it was an instant death, I'll come to my sister in my dream and tell her to blog about it, or I won't rest in peace."

Another popular blogger created a collection of vivid text and photos at ko-htike.blogspot.com and noted that "now the regime open fire into these group, and used fire engine to sweep the blood on the street."

Foreigners blogging in Burma include burmesedayze.blogspot.com, which is written by an unidentified person who moved to Rangoon in March 2006. "The BBC is getting hold of a reasonable amount of video footage that people are taking surreptitiously and sending to them," the foreigner posted Saturday. "Some of it is hand-held video clips shot from the hip (so that the photographer isn't too obvious to the police watching the marches), while other clips seem to have been shot out of windows in tall buildings in downtown Rangoon."

Even before the current protests, Burma had a strong presence on the Internet, created over the years by Burmese dissidents and foreigners who had established pro-democracy Web sites in Thailand, Europe, United States and elsewhere.

In 2006, several Americans created a MySpace Web page for Aung San Suu Kyi, a pro-democracy activist and Nobel Prize Peace Prize laureate, who has been under house arrest for much of the past 18 years.

Other Web sites pertaining to Burma, also known as Myanmar, have been created by nongovernmental organizations, or by aid provided by the U.S. government and other international sources. These include www.irrawaddy.org, which also publishes a monthly magazine in Thailand, and www.dvb.no, the Democratic Voice of Burma radio, in Norway.

In 1988, exiled Burmese journalists set up mizzima.com, which promotes democracy in Burma through India's Mizzima News Agency, The site is bilingual in Burmese and English, and includes online video.

Some blogs, such as weunite-weblog.blogspot.com, offer Internet links relating to Burma, and warn users when the Burmese military regime blocks Web sites and blogs.

And graffiti taggers can go to saffronrevolutionworldwide.blogspot.com, for stencil images of two Buddhist monks walking side by side, which can be cut out, held against a wall, and spray-painted.

"You can help make this image appear all over the world, reminding people everywhere of the uprising in Burma and showing that the struggle for freedom is alive everywhere," wrote the site's bloggers, who are in Mae Sot, Thailand, near the Burma border.

"Monks make great stencil images ... download the pattern and get your monks on the march!"

More information on Burma
Personal blogs by Burmese residents of Rangoon


-- www.xanga.com/dawn_1o9

-- ko-htike.blogspot.com

Personal blogs by an unidentified foreign resident of Rangoon


-- burmesedayze.blogspot.com


Political Web sites on Burma


-- www.irrawaddy.org

-- www.dvb.no (the Democratic Voice of Burma radio based in Norway).

-- www.mizzima.com (Mizzima News Agency based in India).

-- weunite-weblog.blogspot.com: offers Internet links relating to Burma, and warns users when the Burmese military regime blocks a Web site or blog.

Graffiti artists


-- saffronrevolutionworldwide.blogspot.com - offers stencil images of Buddhist monks who have led recent protests. The images can be cut out, held against a wall, and spray-painted.

Bay Area pro-democracy advocates


-- The Burmese American Democratic Alliance (BADA): (510)220-1232; Web site: www.badasf.org; e-mail: nyuntthan@gmail.com.

This article appeared on page A - 10 of the San Francisco Chronicle
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