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Old 10-09-2003, 11:09 AM   #1
magnetic
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.SHN format Vs MP3 - it's just not an issue


IF the quality of the original recording (in .WAV or . SHN) is good then the conversion to MP3, using a reasonably good bit of software will be good too.


Obviously"the purist's" have gotten into their heads that they must use .SHN or loose quality to the 'lossy' formats. (big pile of Cr@p,imo)


I have yet to hear anyone detect a diference between either when played on a PC or converted to .cda. especially when proper software is utilised.


Frankly it's just a non issue
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Old 10-09-2003, 05:46 PM   #2
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mp4 is much better than mp3 but you do lose a lot of quality. the major issue with mp3 is that when they play they do not play continuously like wav. i can't stand listening to live concerts and then you get a half second gap. that's just me.
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Old 10-09-2003, 07:48 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marti286
that's just me.

That's me too.


Hear, hear!
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Old 10-10-2003, 03:23 AM   #4
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mmmhhh,


you can get rid of the 'GAP's'


Nero 6 has a setting to get rid of the gap's between tracks, haven't tried it but even if it doesn't work, it will definitely work with a two second gap after the first track and no gaps between the rest of the tracks, as it already does on nero 5


and Creative has bundled software with it's audigy soundcard which you can also burn MP3's without any gaps - this is what I use for live concerts and stuff.


There are always ways around things on the PC
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Old 10-10-2003, 10:51 AM   #5
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In Nero:

Select all the tracks, select "property" and change the pause from "2" to "0". Presto.
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Old 10-10-2003, 12:03 PM   #6
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all burn software has that option, no gaps, 2 sec gaps. i'm talking about playback. have you ever made and audio disk from mp3's and notics there are still a half second skip. my ipod does the same thing. it not a gap issue, its a format playing issue.
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Old 10-10-2003, 07:24 PM   #7
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I can't tell the difference either, but at least here inNorth America,SHN has become the standard for trading live recordings, and if you try and trade mp3 sourced shows you'll get slammed. Ironically, I think the ones pushing the SHN/lossless audio stuff the hardest are the ones who treat it more as a collection and may not even actually listen to all the shows they get, because SHN works as a good archival solution. I still trade all my shows in regular audio format, but there is a growing trend among show traders here to save everything in SHN format only, and only occasionally burn the "best" shows in audio format. So at least on this side of the pond,SHN iskinda the basic standard among live music collectors for the forseeable future and it's something you have to deal with.
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Old 10-10-2003, 08:32 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mierk
Ironically, I think the ones pushing the SHN/lossless audio stuff the hardest are the ones who treat it more as a collection and may not even actually listen to all the shows they get.
AMEN. [img]smileys/smiley6.gif[/img] Frankly, I think if Mario were really into Damien, he'd fallen all over himself to hear the crappy Today FM session I uploaded instead of having a fit over missing INFO file.

Am I right, Mario? [img]smileys/smiley2.gif[/img] But then, not everybody is cut to do what Mario or, along different lines, loveless do, so I'm grateful for what they do as well.
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Old 10-10-2003, 08:50 PM   #9
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Right then, you seem to agree that .SHN or the similar non-lossless formats are really a trend or 'standard' that people have settled on?


honestly my impression is; people have got it into their heads that the 'almighty' . SHN is necessary, when in fact anyone with an ounce/ gram of sense knows it make no Discernabledifference to 99.99% of people if MP3 is used.


Software is available for 'no pause between tracks', when something is burnt with this software you will not get pauses between tracks, providing that reasonably good software is used.


Read this post and weep you 'lossless' mis-guided .SHN supporters!!!
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Old 10-10-2003, 11:02 PM   #10
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I don't really know if there is a discernable difference betweem MP3 and SHN, but I was once dating somebody who builds high-end loudpeakers, so I bet there is to some people.

As to SHN....frankly, I think it is very popular with certain cicles. I never even heard about it until a month or two ago, so you can hardly call it a standard (YET).

I have nothing against SHN, only against the snob factor that is used to calculate the transfer rate [img]smileys/smiley11.gif[/img]
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Old 10-11-2003, 01:38 AM   #11
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the most notable difference is in the percussion. it sounds more crisp on wav/shn files than mp3s. listen for it, see if you notice.
also the issue is this..you may not personally care for if it is mp3 or not but think of this....

someone has the wavs/shns and converts to mp3, then burns and gives it to someone else. that person extracts them and encodes to mp3 again and passes it along. next person does the same thing. the file is losing quality every single time this happens and you will ultimately begin to notice. also, why wouldn't you want all copies out there to be as close to the original as possible and sound the best possible?

oh, and angela, shn is a standard in this world of live music trading. been around for years since music like this was first introduced to the internet. flac is starting to come up but hasn't made much of a dent yet. of course people won't trade studio cd rips or single songs in shn or flac, but it's always been this way for live shows online.Edited by: AllThatLies
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Old 10-11-2003, 01:40 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marti286
mp4 is much better than mp3 but you do lose a lot of quality. the major issue with mp3 is that when they play they do not play continuously like wav. i can't stand listening to live concerts and then you get a half second gap. that's just me.
this is a totally mute point and has nothing to do with mp3/shn/any other format. it's how you burn the disc.
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Old 10-11-2003, 04:22 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mierk
I can't tell the difference either, but at least here inNorth America,SHN has become the standard for trading live recordings, and if you try and trade mp3 sourced shows you'll get slammed. Ironically, I think the ones pushing the SHN/lossless audio stuff the hardest are the ones who treat it more as a collection and may not even actually listen to all the shows they get, because SHN works as a good archival solution. I still trade all my shows in regular audio format, but there is a growing trend among show traders here to save everything in SHN format only, and only occasionally burn the "best" shows in audio format. So at least on this side of the pond,SHN iskinda the basic standard among live music collectors for the forseeable future and it's something you have to deal with.







Huh....that's exactly what I do. I archive all my shows in SHN and only burn the 'excellent' ones. I also prefer to trade in SHN because it is smaller and has error checking, but I am not opposed to MP3s at all. I have many a show in MP3 that is every bit as good as the best SHN shows. The high quality MP3 shows are just very rare as opposed to most of the SHN shows being high quality. My 2 cents...





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Old 10-11-2003, 09:34 AM   #14
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Couple helpful sites on lossless compression schemes for those interested:

For shn--> research.umbc.edu/~hamilton/shnfaq.html

For flac--> flac.sourceforge.net/index.html




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Old 10-11-2003, 10:19 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllThatLies
oh, and angela, shn is a standard in this world of live music trading.
Then how come I have never seen a SHN copy of a Radiohead, Placebo or Coldplay show (to name some of the more popular bands)?

Not that I have collected heaps of those, but a few. There's no Jeff Buckley in SHN, no Frames, no Prayer Boat, no Augie March, no Madrugada and so on.

And I trade PLENTY of those all the time. To me that means SHN is popular and a standard only in *certain* circles.

The first time I ever heard of it was when someone uploaded a Jeff Buckley show in SHN format. That's where things start to get whacky! The original is nowhere near CD quality nor a WAV source! It was a show that has circulated as an MP3 for years.
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Old 10-11-2003, 10:44 AM   #16
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I'd have to go on the side of the SHN/flacs when i've traded counting crows bootlegs circles it seems to be very frowned upon ripping to MP3 format and even says not to in many of the accompaning file. This is mainly due to what AllThatLies said about the degradation of quality as people re-rip. e.g. what if someone along the way decides to rip at lower quality along the way.

Personally I like to recieve bootlegs that are as near to the original recording as possible then if i want them in MP3 format I'll rip them myself. I'm pretty sure you can notice loss in mp3's especially after several rips.

However i'm all for samples or single tracks being put up in mp3 format as long as they don't claim to be full bootlegs and aren't traded with.
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Old 10-11-2003, 11:00 AM   #17
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Angela-- You might want to hop on over to www.sharingthegroove.com I've downloaded a bunch of raidohead shns of real high quality recording shows along with other artist as well. In fact, listening to an amazing sounding sbd of a Police show from '82 right now that I downloaded BT from there this morning. Best thing to do is check often so you can join when there are a lot of seeds/peers. The Police show on broadband with 8 peers and 15 seeds took like all of an hour and a half. Just be nice and keep your window up after for others. [img]smileys/smiley17.gif[/img]
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Old 10-11-2003, 11:13 AM   #18
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ooops..apologies.. its www.sharingthegroove.ORG
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Old 10-11-2003, 11:45 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funky Avocado
ooops..apologies.. its www.sharingthegroove.ORG
Thanks! Will have a look around.

I'm definitely on the quality preservation bandwagon! I only trade by mail (and like it that way) and only make direct disc copies. If I have to extract tracks I extract to WAV format.
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Old 10-13-2003, 04:38 PM   #20
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"Then how come I have never seen a SHN copy of a Radiohead, Placebo or Coldplay show (to name some of the more popular bands)?"


Angela, while i don't know of Placebo, I have many Radiohead and Coldplay shows in SHN format. They most certainly do exist.
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Old 10-13-2003, 06:36 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedRocket
Angela, while i don't know of Placebo, I have many Radiohead and Coldplay shows in SHN format. They most certainly do exist.
Thanks [img]smileys/smiley1.gif[/img]. Good to know.
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Old 10-13-2003, 09:34 PM   #22
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If you've got access to the newsgroups, there is actually a Coldplay acoutic show up on the alt.binaries.music.shn group right now -- 2/8/03, a small private show at a bar here in Scottsdale put on by one of the local radio shows. Hit me up if you can't download and areinterested in a copy.


http://db.etree.org/lookup_show.php3?shows_key=138454
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Old 10-14-2003, 04:21 AM   #23
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Sorry Magnetic, you're clearly misinformed. To quote from http://www.geocities.com/altbinaries...l/mp3gaps.html,

"1. WHAT ARE MP3 GAPS?
These are the short silence gaps at the beginning or end of music tracks that result from ENCODING an audio track into mp3 format. They are NOT the gaps on a CD between audio tracks put there by the CD manufacturer. mp3 gaps were NOT there originally and are merely an artifact of the encoding process. These sections of silence are needed by the mp3 encoder and decoder to ensure that there are an equal number of "samples" in each part or "frame" of the mp3 file. The mp3 encoder/decoder needs this so that it can perform its frequency analysis properly in order to compress and later play back the audio signal.

Almost every audio track encoded to mp3 will have these small gaps added to either the beginning and/or end of the final mp3 file. Generally they are less than a second (often 0.1-0.2 seconds long) and may not noticeable at all. But they clearly can be heard when playing tracks sequentially where no break originally occured in the sound or playing between tracks on the CD. Operas and vocal works are an example where this happens frequently."

To actually remove these when you go to burn an audio cd, you need to convert them back to wav and trim them ever so slightly in Cool Edit or what have you, paste them all back together and re-index the entire file, which obviously noone's going to do. Folks are just happy enough to burn straight from mp3, and if they're happy about that, that's grand. The shn circles are just people who just like to have EXACT copies of the source show as it was made, just like copying the entire cd as is to put it in the post. There's no need to be such an arse about singing the praises of your beloved mp3.
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Old 10-14-2003, 09:42 AM   #24
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frameserver, frameserver....my oh my,


been reading up have you, well the Gaps I was on about were the gaps between tracks that are put there by the burning software, namely nero, which I have already spoken of.


Your gaps;


These gaps created in MP3's are usually negliable (and at the end of the tracks),and any decent program , like nero, has options to remove this silence at the end of tracks. To go about converting back to .wav and trimming would really be a complete waste of time.


Most players for the PC can be set to merge tracks for a seamless musical experience if that's what's needed.


...and MP3 is everyones, not just mine
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Old 10-14-2003, 10:22 AM   #25
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No need to come across so cocky my friend, you're doing yourself no favours. Anyway, sorry man, but I don't think those WERE the gaps other people were talking about. Anyone with half a brain knows how to eliminate pause gaps in Nero. But's that not the real issue. The reason people use shn instead of even the highest bitrate mp3s isn't to avoid track gaps, it's because of the progressive loss of quality that will happen if people keep making new cds and then more mp3s from them, like somebody said. A downloaded shn file can be compared with it's source file to see if its EXACTLY the same. Essentially just like doing a full DAO copy of a CD, but taking up half the disk space. I have no problem with playing mp3s on my own machine, as I'm sure neither do any of the other folks who use shn to trade, so stop trying to make out that there's a whole 'them & us' scenario here. Shn just comes with a 'guarantee of quality', if you like. Like Irish beef. Well maybe that's not the best comparison. Just so you know where I'm coming from.
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Old 10-14-2003, 11:34 AM   #26
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the love on this board is getting skimpy my friends
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Old 10-14-2003, 05:49 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllThatLies
someone has the wavs/shns and converts to mp3, then burns and gives it to someone else. that person extracts them and encodes to mp3 again and passes it along. next person does the same thing. the file is losing quality every single time this happens and you will ultimately begin to notice. also, why wouldn't you want all copies out there to be as close to the original as possible and sound the best possible?

wtf are you talking about? why would your scenario happen? what actually does happen is this:


the first person encodes the show to mp3's. he burns it for himself. than he spreads THE MP3'S with the fellow fans, which all burn the 1ST ENCODING for themselves, and spread the same mp3's (w/o re-encoding as you say) on and on...


I don't get why someone would re-encode the show?
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Old 10-15-2003, 12:49 PM   #28
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Because they don't know it's MP3 sourced. There are a hell of a lot of cd copies of shows flying about the place without any information of where they came from. They get mixed up with with normal full-quality burns of the show and it gets harder and harder to find a source copy. That's all. Don't get so worked up guys, we're just pointing out why some people like to use SHN rather than MP3, and why the statement that there's 'no competition' is a little flawed. Different strokes for different folks. Hey, sure I was one of the most active members of the ricer audiogalaxy group in it's time - If it helps spread the music, then great, I just like to have a copy like I'd have made myself.

"Sounds like somebody's a slave to their MP3 software... Diversify maaaaaaaaaaaan" [img]smileys/smiley2.gif[/img] Edited by: framesaver
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Old 10-30-2003, 07:42 AM   #29
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me personally i dont hear much of a difference due to the music i download only gets played thru a pc or my car stereo, i favour mp3 cuz they are smaller. i understand the need to keep things in original form etc though i do think people are a bit too over dramatic about it concidering its music and its free.
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Old 10-30-2003, 07:44 AM   #30
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i miss audiogalaxy.
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