Thank you for denying me the right to answer back, emmett

[Vienna]

Originally Posted by Hendrik

But there's another proof of how carefully you really read the posts and ripping out single statements from the context. You can do better than that, c'mon!

to be quite honest no i can't be bothered to read your posts...like johanna said these kind of things have been overdiscussed and do you really think you are changing anything by discussing it here???

actually i'm gonna apologise for even posting this, i don't know why i'm bothering, i don't even care what it is you're discussing actually...i never bother myself with religion, in the wider sense it affects me i suppose but in my own little world (where i have enough ****ing problems) it doesn't affect me at all, if you want to bother yourself with it then that's your business, i for one can't be arsed and i don't care how ignorant that makes me

i just wasted a good 5 minutes there didn't i?!?!

[Gatsby]

Originally Posted by Closing_Doors

Ultimately the statement "christianity is crap"/"religion is poo" is moronic because it's completely meaningless.

I said "religion is poo" basically for the fact that issues like this are brought up. People hide behind a religion. Thats my opinion and you cant have it

I have to say i respect hendrik for sticking by his opinion.. Maybe he got a bit heated on the discussion but never got out of line really in my opinion

I dont agree with all he says but the majourity i do.. I was raised without religion due to both my parents being strict catholics. When i was younger i would have to turn around in my chair and face the wall during religion. Only myself and a jewish guy in the class would have to do this while the rest would be allowed to continue with religion class...

Well done for bringing up monty python "life of brian"... One of my best friends is a firm catholic believer (scarce these days) and it is one of his favourite all time films
why? Because he can laugh at himself and his religion without taking offence.

[SisterMidnight]

i agree. religion is the root of all the conflict in the world if you step back and look at it... i don't believe in it for that very reason (and many others) spirituality is a different matter... and a sense of humor doesn't hurt either


i'm in favor of an open dialogue. it was in the news today

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT

[emmi]

I personally don`t think religion is behind all the things that are wrong in this world. There are allways two sides to every story, religion can be a source of strenght and power but unfortunately there are also people who justify the things they do with religion.
But the answer to any conflict -religious or not- should not be killing or terrosrism, because it doesn`t bring any answers or solutions.

[Cali]

Originally Posted by SisterMidnight

i agree. religion is the root of all the conflict in the world if you step back and look at it... i don't believe in it for that very reason (and many others) spirituality is a different matter... and a sense of humor doesn't hurt either


i'm in favor of an open dialogue. it was in the news today

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT

i couldn't agree more melissa. i haven't read the quran but i've read the bible many times (i went to catholic school ) and even thought everybody said that it's a book of love and blah blah blah, the judeo/christian bible is THE bloodies most brutal book i have ever read. but people are taught not to see that side of religion. religion is supposedly a good thing, but taking a deeper look, the very foundation of most religions is completely twisted. and then again we're suppossed to overlook those 'minor details'. and that's the problem. if people just stopped and started analizing their gods and the foundations of their religions, the world wouldn't be so ****ed up.

[jasonAVO]

i came back to just add a positive note from the islamic world...

Al-Sistani, who wields enormous influence over Iraq's majority Shiites, made no call for protests and suggested that militant Muslims were partly to blame for distorting Islam's image.

He referred to "misguided and oppressive" segments of the Muslim community and said their actions "projected a distorted and dark image of the faith of justice, love and brotherhood."

i respect sistani. he is a levelheaded leader in the muslim world. the calls for vengence prove the point of the cartoons. and he knows this. he knows the only way to get people to see islam differently is to show people it is not that way.

Originally Posted by PenguinBoy

To me i think the images were offensive, and hurtfull. though i don't agree with the reactions, i can't say i didn't expect them. The young muslims of the world feel very threatened. I think the problems are social rather than religious. .

replace muslim with black , world with america and print this back during the rodney king riots. people get mad all the time. it is the reactions that are troublesome. blacks had a right to be mad following rodney kings beatings but not to riot and kill people. people defended the black punks that pulled Reginold Denny out of his truck and smashed his head in. cause they were made and felt threatened. just like people now are defending violent reactions of muslims.

Originally Posted by PenguinBoy

hittler succeeded through propeganda and harnessing racism which was already present. i feel that young muslims already feel the items of racism. If they had an obsessive leader like hitler... they could be very dangerous. .

hmmm......hitler succeeded because people allowed themselves to buy into his violent rhetoric. because of what was inside of them. those others were still responsible for their own actions or inactions. young muslims feel racism , yes. but many are also taught to be racist. generally speaking, in the muslim world schools teach to hate jews. should jews now feel justified to kidnap an arab to protest these 'offensive' curriculums? and do you mean leaders like binladen or the leader of iran who is seeking nukes, suggests that israel should be destroyed and has said that one nuke will take care of israel while the retaliation would only hurt the arab world? could be very dangerous....i learned that while watching the buildings in ny fall.

Originally Posted by PenguinBoy

however these things take time. pissing people off is not healthy unless u wanna start another world war. war on terror, looks like a war on islam. .

looks that way. but in america we have also caught and punished homegrown terrorists. white supremist were caught a few yrs ago with chemical weapons and were about to use them. been a number of these instances here. but hey...i dont see many other groups other than anti govt and muslims groups calling for violence.

pissing people off is not a crime. it comes with freedom. appeasment only makes things worse though. europe thought the same way about hitler to keep the hitler analogy going. giving in to this and then that. didnt want to piss the guy off after all. oh we will just give him this country or that one. that way he wont turn on us. worked well no?

Originally Posted by PenguinBoy

"the escence of freedom, is self-dicipline and control".

i agree. and that includes when you are faced with someone who does not exhibit that same control. one prints a cartoon....showing perhaps a lack of control in regards to being rude. how you react is how you are defined. not by the antagonists act. but by your own.

Originally Posted by PenguinBoy

islamic culture is very tradition based, and very strict. And i do agree that it's nature is very dangerous. just how i feel that fundamentalist christians which i have seen in america, are very frightening. the possibilities are not good, and the realities aren't much better.

i cant stand christian fundamentalist. however , i have no qualms about pissing one off. we have nutsos over here but they arent blowing up buildings(though there have been abortion bombings in the past- note how we didnt get rid of that legal right though) and because of freedom of speech we just had kanye west pose on the cover of a major mag , rolling stone, as christ. no one called for the kidnapping of the photographer or to burn down the building they are in. no ones lives were threatened. we shouldnt be fearful of pissing people off. i dont think anyone should go around trying to get a rise out of someone, but when they do it does not justify violence against them.

you said earlier that young muslims feel threatened. so they are scared. ok.
so? does everyone that feels threatened get to react in a violent manner or just muslims? i know several respectable muslims personally. they would take this kind of reasoning(and i have discussed it with them) as insulting and racist itself. it is like you expect less of them due to them being arab. i know several blacks who feel the same way when people say the same about blacks. 'oh they are angry and have a right to be'. as if to say they arent capable of controlling themselves.

it shouldnt matter if you feel offended by those drawings. its ok to think they are horrid. insulting. threatening violence though? everyone has felt the same way these arabs have. again, how we react is what defines us.

by the way...i believe that the lords name being used in vain is blasphemous. next time someone says god damn it please ask them to apologise and to never say it again so they dont offend christians everywhere. boycott all movies or shows that use it. kidnap authors of books that use it. because we really dont want to piss off those fundamentalist christians do we?

jason

Outrage over caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad escalated in the Arab and Islamic world Thursday, with Palestinian gunmen briefly kidnapping a German citizen and protesters in Pakistan chanting "death to France" and "death to Denmark."

Palestinian militants surrounded European Union headquarters in Gaza, and gunmen burst into several hotels and apartments in the West Bank in search of foreigners to take hostage.
.



see i can easily defend the drawings. freedom of speech.
how does anyone defend or make excuses for these types of responses?

[jasonAVO]

by the way...
egypt has accepted british(though it is a day and a half away) help for the tragic boat accident there. still searching for survivors.

egypt has also declined help from israel and its massive , immediately available navy.

why you think that is?

tolerance ....riiiight.

jason

"The Coast Guard is doing every in its power to try to rescue these people,"

except accepting help from jews.

families of victims should be offended i think. as well as jews.

[steveboswell]

[administrator]

Originally Posted by Hendrik

Yes, it is Emmett's board after all, but think: would Damien want to shut down an important debate like that? I don't think so.

i don't think of it as my board, it's everyone's. i've never closed anything because i didn't think it was an important debate. the reason i closed that thread is because of the language that you used. i think it was inflammatory and offensive to people who use this forum. i think you let your argument down when you resort to that. of course i believe in free speech and i will always stand up for free speech. until exercising your right to free speech is antagonistic towards another's rights. and i believe that the language you used, probably unintentionally, inhibits the right of muslim people who use this forum to not feel under attack.

as for the debate itself, nobody here believes that threatening people with violence is right, that's a given. and of course suicide bombers are horrible. but they are simply unrepresentative of Islam, and the vast majority of Muslim people everywhere who are good, peace loving people. there are bad people everywhere, on all sides, in all religions... i think religion can be a very powerful force for peace and positive thing in someone's life... can inspire great things in people... i don't think we can say 'religion is the root of all the conflict in the world'... people fight for all kinds of reasons, some of them very boring and stupid...

[PenguinBoy]

thankyou emmet... jason seems to think i promote violence

[Closing_Doors]

Originally Posted by SisterMidnight

religion is the root of all the conflict in the world if you step back and look at it...

Huh? Care to justify that statement? I guess you can't since it's so vague it can be neither proven nor disproven but still....you may as well say black people are the root of all evil...I don't believe it but I can't disprove it.

Originally Posted by Revelate

I said "religion is poo" basically for the fact that issues like this are brought up. People hide behind a religion. Thats my opinion and you cant have it

It still doesn't really mean anything. Who hides behind religion? There's always a few nutjobs but it looks there as if you're saying everybody (that's religious) hides behind religion which I don't think is fair...but maybe that's not what you meant

[cille]

i am SO SO SO sick of this whole thing. i'm sick of seeing some colleagues suddenly turning into anti-islamic monsters, and other (muslim) colleaguse claim that those stoopid drawings are all part of a global jewish conspiracy. frontiers seem to be sharpened, it seems so silly how people STILL haven't learned to understand and respect eachother. we had the bloody 20th century to learn from, for x's sake - how can we all have not learned from those bloody lessons?

i'm sick of fearing for my own, and my loved-ones' life and well-being reg. terror b/c of those stoopid drawings - that aren't even funny. everything's just blown out of proportions. everybody's talking bout it, i hear of nothing else, and sometimes i just wish it wasn't there, that it all hadn't happened cause the thought of this situation, the hopelessness of it, just makes me feel... sick!!! SICK SICK SICK! when will we learn? i mean, we, the humanity as a whole? i am asking this with tears in my eyes cause it just breaks my heart that we still haven't learn that we are all the same animal, having the same needs and possibilities, and that we must share this planet, even with those we do not understand, or even those we do not like. how many decades of bloodshed will it take for us to realize this is the wrong path, that we must change our settled ways on either side of any conflicts, and that those who have must give up some of their goods for those who have less, tell me, how long will it take?

and most importantly i wonder: what'll it take to turn this around, and when can we start...?

[jasonAVO]

penguin....i dont think you promote violence. but you seem to make excuses for it. they feel threatened...so what? who doesnt? they feel racism against them? who doesnt? being scared is an excuse . there is none for violence unless i am being threatened. cartoons did not call for violence. they are ****in cartoons!

Originally Posted by cille

i'm sick of fearing for my own, and my loved-ones' life and well-being reg. terror b/c of those stoopid drawings -

but thats just it...you arent fearing for your loved ones lives because of the cartoons. you are fearful because of the reaction to those cartoons. arent you? the cartoons can not harm anyone. reactions to them do. who over reacted to them? muslims or westerners? who is making this a big deal? why is kanye west as christ ok but american newspapers wont print these out of fear of offending muslims?

the cartoonist werent preaching hate in my opinion . they were calling attention to it.
and you know what i liken it to? when someone doenst like someone because they see in that person the things in themselves they dont like. most dont realize it or analyse themselves over it . they take it out on the person they see it in. you hear it all the time. 'they dont get along because they are so much alike.' you dont want cartoons depicting mohammed with a bomb for a turban? what should you do? get people to stop thinkking of islam as something that preaches that. how do you get that to happen? stop calling on your followers to violence would be a good first step.

what im sick of is people making excuses for peoples anger turning into violence.

they are cartoons! cartoons. thats it. and one side is screaming for violence. at some point our culture of freedom, freedom even if you disagree, has to stand up to the culture of intolerance. i dont believe islam is supposed to be intolerant as it is now. it is due to islamic tolerance of science that helped cause the renaissance. the leaders back then had saved irreplacable research that the early catholic church had tried to suppress. but that is not what i see from the leaders of islam today. i see them destroying 1000 yr old buddha statues. thats not tolerance.

im tired of people bending over backwards , changing the way we live because they dont want to offend muslims. a company in britain banned the display of pigs in their office so as not to offend any muslims. yep. they lady with a figurine of piglet had to take the friend of winnie the pooh down because it offended someone. ridiculous. and people that say its ridiculous are intolerant? bah.

jason

Jewish doctors from Israel were among the first to arrive on scene in Indonesia where the tsunami hit. They were denied entry into the largest Muslim country on the globe for the mere fact they were Jews

stop screaming about the intolerance of the west while acting in hate. that is the only way islam will stop being seen by many as a religion of hate.

[cille]

some of the cartoons are disrespectful, calling all muslims, personifyed by their profet, terrorists. it's not so much a matter of bending backwards , as a matter of simple press ethics. i stand in the middle of this, jas - i don't wanna point fingers, i would prefer to define a 'them' and 'us'.
cause i am not on the same team as that fooking reactionary, right-wing paper jyllands-posten, who only posted those cartoons to sell more copies of their paper in the first place. jas, SOME muslims destroyed those buddha statues, not all of them. stop pointing fingers!

what makes me afraid, jason, is that i live in a country that desided to enter that bloody iraqi war, making us more open to terrorist attacks (im not justyfying terror here, i'm just saying that my country is in a war i never agreed on, thus risking my life too, and that makes me so angry), and it makes me afraid when people dig trences (sp?), LIKE jyllandsposten did and LIKE some muslims/opportunist leaders of some arabic countries - that's what makes me fookin afraid, it's not the terror itself i fear, it's all of this muddle, and what it'll lead to. because we all seem disenclined to start listening to each other. we may not bend backwards to people who get offended by this or the other pig display or cartoon, and a lot of muslims ARENT offended by such things, but we should at least LISTEN, even to the most angry person.

this post was a mess, cause i'm very emotional these days and most of what i say just sounds like john lennon's 'imagine', more or less, even though i am tired of that song. just... stop pointing fingers ok? there is no need in characterising muslims or anybody else as anything but human beings, that's all it comes down to.

[Beevers_uk]

Guys, everybodies arguing about this! We all have our own opnions... and you cant change another persons opnions!! We can all argue our opinions, and some might even try to persuade other people to change their own opnions. But it just seems (to me that is), that so many of you are arguing, and falling out over this!!

So can we all not just be friends? I hate it when people argue, and i have no opnion i wanna share on this thread. I just wish the arguing will stop, and we could just let it be!! I'm sorry, like i said i have no opnion here to share, but i will share that, i just wish everyone would stop arguing!!

...Pretty Please!!

[cille]

but the good thing, beevers, is that here we CAN argue and still be friends! which is how i think it should defo be in the rest of the world. don't worry!

[Beevers_uk]

Originally Posted by cille

but the good thing, beevers, is that here we CAN argue and still be friends! which is how i think it should defo be in the rest of the world. don't worry!

Well just dont fall out with anybody you crazy kids!!

[cille]

lol sure thing duder!

i think this may be the first time i ever praise the danish prime minister anders fogh rasmussen, but i actually think that he handled the recent interview to arabic media and meeting with arabic ambassadors quite well when he was sorry that some people's feelings were hurt, but the principle of freedom of speech can't be bent. i guess the leaders of some arabic nations will rather stress the religoius aspect of this thing, cause it can evoke people's emotions PRO them in a world that could quickly turn against the not so freedom-based countries, rather than the political aspect that in some countries people can actually say what they want, even if it's outrageous. would be great if someone in-between the worlds now colliding could open ears for both of these aspects in this matter.

*trying to build up hope*

[Gatsby]

Originally Posted by Closing_Doors

It still doesn't really mean anything. Who hides behind religion? There's always a few nutjobs but it looks there as if you're saying everybody (that's religious) hides behind religion which I don't think is fair...but maybe that's not what you meant

I said "people hide behind religion" In no way did i say or mean all people hide behind it, its a general term.. And what i meant was that religion is the stem of most arguments and hate in the world, thus me having a problem with it


Nobody wins arguments... Especially religious ones

[jasonAVO]

Originally Posted by cille

but we should at least LISTEN, even to the most angry person.

.

i agree completely. i believe trying to understand people is a main componant of peace. i had a friend who absolutely hated jews. he would throw reasons around...one being 'they are arrogant. call themselves the chosen people.'
ok. on the face that is arrogant. so , unlike my friend, i simply asked a jew about it. ----i need to interupt myself- a lot of people wouldnt ask out of fear of offending that person . fear stops rational discussion---ok....so she described it to me like this....shes the first born child. as first born she has certain responsibilities that do not fall to her younger siblings. in a way she is chosen for certain duties. that is how she sees the jews, as gods first born and they have certain duties as the 'chosen ones' . she doesnt feel that god loves jews more than others anymore than she feels her parents love her anymore than her siblings. it changed the way i viewed some things about judaism. it also was the beginning of the end of my friendship with the jewhater as he kept just hating jews. but thats another story.

anyway....you know me better than anyone here. my belief is there is no one right way to live. as long as you dont try to tell me or other cultures how to live im cool. these muslim groups are trying to tell us our freedom of speech is unacceptable. and i know that not all muslims destroyed the statues just as not all muslims took a part in the beslan massacre. but we are speaking in generalities. so really the hubbub is just the lack of qualifier- 'some', or 'not all'. not all individuals in a whole are the same. but, all individuals make up the whole. and right now the whole of islam isnt so pretty. and that is what i got form those pictures. no one from the outside of the culture can change the image of islam. that is up to the individuals that make it up. if the people who are muslim have a problem with the actual cartoons, they need to be honest as to why people see islam that way. and do something to change it if that is what they want to do.

on a side note to a fellow ishmael reader...this is exactly why i dont think civilization works. you have a world with thousands of different cultures and a global culture trying to encompass them all. has been for 10,000 yrs. and everywhere those cultures touch there is conflict. from the tribes of native americans fighting to save their culture to the buddies of binladen trying to keep islam in the middle ages. some want the change others dont. you cant make them all happy. so whether it is gwb trying to turn the muslim world into a capitalistic society or muslims trying to quell free speech in europe....theres going to be conflict. hell....its no different than my mom telling my how to live. my way is not her way. our way may not be there way.

opps...boss just said i could leave....have a great weekend. and everyone at least be glad we are allowed to have these discussions. there are places in the world where it is not allowed.
jason

infinite diversity/ infinite combinations

[cille]

i know i know, i'm just pretty worked up about this these days, and i don't just fear for my own/my loved ones' life these days (altho this is far from a worthy cause to die for imo) - i fear for the next century, the next millenium, this planet! and of course i agree w you on the civilizations issue, but that's on a theoretical plan - right here and now i just think we all just need to reach out, w/o losing our ideals, to avoid more bloodshed.

Oooooohhhh,


HAVE A GREAT W-E!

[Hendrik]

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/inte...398853,00.html



@Cecilie:

I'm sure this quarrel all over the world wasn't aviodable. If it wouldn't have come now then maybe in a few months or years. Has all this diplomatic appeasement bollocks ever changed anything in the past years while trying to set up a "rational dialogue" with the muslims? Then show it to me, I wanna see it. And how the hell does a "rational dialogue" work without clear, hurtful criticism anyway? I think the cartoon was a good start, because it hurt. That's how we solve or start to discuss some things in Europe. The popular finger that touches the wound. The only thing i know is that we have to be hard on this subject. We mustn't give in to some medieval views. For what? Sacrificing love and freedom? Not with me. Not when brave people with an own opinion like Sophie Scholl and Stauffenberg died in Nazi Germany for my ancestor's sins.


@emmett:

"i don't think of it as my board, it's everyone's. i've never closed anything because i didn't think it was an important debate. the reason i closed that thread is because of the language that you used. i think it was inflammatory"

Yes, I cursed. And yet not all the time. But did you ever think why i used it? To prove a point. To also provoke. To underline the fact that I defend the right of freedom of speech with every limit/inch of that freedom. And that includes insulting people who deserve to be insulted for their childish, fanatic and stupid actions (in my humble opinion). And if it wouldn't be me, it would be Jay Leno or Chris Rock ore anybody else.

Like I said, I normally don't get emotional in serious topics.

Be honest, when was the last time you got emotional or cursed at somebody? And ask yourself why.
I bet that behind closed european doors you will hear all these "insulting" things anyway. Now some stupid german said it out loud - so what?

Again: my intentions didn't consist of spreading hatred (that's the muslim extremists's job, not mine), but to make people think. The debate itself got going because i also posted examples of criticism. That's the difference.

A non-racist pacifist like me doesn't have a missile, a sword, a bomb or a fist to punch, my only "weapon" (if you can call it that) is the word. Or the laughter. Sharp weapons and yet non-corrosive in physical terms.

"and i believe that the language you used, probably unintentionally, inhibits the right of muslim people who use this forum to not feel under attack."

But the over-sensitivity of some muslims inhibits and insults our european rights - Voltaire, the father of Enlightnment would turn in his grave, Emmett.

I didn't beat or slap anybody, did I?

but they are simply unrepresentative of Islam,

Yes, I know. But the question must be allowed why there are never demonstrations or wild protests of the pragmatic and peaceful muslims when those radical b*stards slaughter innoccent people in the name of their religion. Why is it not allowed for muslims to picture good ol' buddy Mohammad in their school books when they're bored or wanna be creative? (they could picture him as a positive symbol like a handshake or so and put the name Mohammad under that, would that still be forbidden?) Why is it that there are still thousands of women who get stoned for misbehaviour or are not allowed to drive nor to leave the house? Where were the muslims to protest against that? Why do they have to wear clothes to cover themselves (not only in non-european countries)? What would Freud say to that? Do naive europeans have the right to ask those questions?

Misty, you are a muslim and you clearly are not one of those radicals, but why don't you explain to us how the quran *really* works for peaceful muslims who respect women and intolerate violence? How does that work in Malaysia. Audity experienced something else in other muslim countries, so we'd like to hear a contrary opinion. (only if you want to of course)

i think religion can be a very powerful force for peace and positive thing in someone's life... can inspire great things in people...

I agree.

i don't think we can say 'religion is the root of all the conflict in the world'...

But it becomes the root of all evil if they make it too big. If it really does get big, they should keep it inside their minds and stop bothering innocent, friendly people. My hypothesis is: all the muslims who felt insulted about those cartoons do not seem to have a very strong faith. A faith without arrogance and vain, a faith without false pride. That's true faith.



Today's sad examples:

- after the french chief editor was fired a muslim chief editor in Jordan had to go because he printed those cartoons and was also being self-critical (!) about some things in islam

- protesting muslims (e.g. in London) who demand the heads of the cartoonists and 'to hell with freedom of speech!' i just simply laugh at them, cos i don't have enough tears to cry about this

- the danish cartoonists received murder threats and have to have guards all the time

- the north american - somewhat christian fundamentalist - government (not the american people, thank god!) supports the whimpy actions of the muslims - unexpectedly, what a pity that Jack Straw (british minister) has done the same thing or Hamid Karzai (head of Afghanistan). But i can see britain don't want to upset their muslims. jason's pig example shows that britain's already got a growing fear. i noticed that, too, when i was over in birmingham e.g.

And thank you people for disputing about the topic. (thank you even to the ones who don't agree with my opinion, cos that's the main fuel for a debate)

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by Beevers_uk

So can we all not just be friends?

There was never a doubt about that, mate. If we argue, it's never personal. We are grown-ups.

[Beevers_uk]

Good!!

[cille]

hendrik, i guess we agree on the principles, but not the methods.

Originally Posted by Hendrik

We are grown-ups.

speak for yourself there mate!

[PenguinBoy]

"change only comes through the barrel of a gun"
mao tse tung.

i wonder.

if i walk into town wearing a tshirt saying "islam is stupid violent cuntish religion." i am most definately going to get beat up and maybe stabbed up. They are not right to do it, and their actions do indeed confirm violence. And i suppose u could say that i was simply expressing my thoughts, and using my freedom of speach. but it wouldn't matter cos i'd be dead.

i was irresponsable by wearing that tshirt. and it would have been naive to think that i would be safe. surely it would have been more consrtuctive to go study the religion, the tradition, go into the comunity, talk to people, understand and offer support, teach against violence.

People won't listen if they don't respect you.

If people feel threatened they're going to cling onto their traditions, their prejudices and their violence as a means of defiance.

I think the cartoons helped block allot of progression and development.

as for the removal of pigs, if there are employers forcing their employees to do this i think it's quite wierd and ott. but if it's employees doing it out of respect for their islamic fellow co-workers, good for them pretty thoughtful if u ask me.

[Miss Pink]

can i just say, i havent read all of the posts nor do i intend to (simple cause there's too much stuff to read and i'l feel stupid reading it) but henders i think your over reacting, and forgive me but acting a bit childish. i get the feeling that ur having a bit of a tantrum cause ppl arent agreeing with you. come on ur what 21? not every 1 agrees with your opinions. sure ppl could hate my opinion and what ive written so far, but i can deal with it.

Now can we get along peacefully and happily

Originally Posted by Revelate

Nobody wins arguments... Especially religious ones

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by cille

speak for yourself there mate!

Well, part-time grown-up, I meant.

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by Miss Pink

i get the feeling that ur having a bit of a tantrum cause ppl arent agreeing with you. come on ur what 21? not every 1 agrees with your opinions.

can i just say, i havent read all of the posts nor do i intend to

Originally Posted by Hendrik

First of all: it's brilliant that you disagree, Cille! How come? We can have a...*drum roll* - debate!

Originally Posted by Hendrik

And thank you people for disputing about the topic. (thank you even to the ones who don't agree with my opinion, cos that's the main fuel for a debate)

Originally Posted by Hendrik

Originally Posted by Beevers_uk

So can we all not just be friends?


There was never a doubt about that, mate. If we argue, it's never personal. We are grown-ups.

Now who's the childish one here, hm? Hey, it's alright: thou shalt be forgiven.

I can deal with it, too, by the way.

And what has age got to do with it? I never judge people by their age, that's arrogant.

This discussion was always peacefully. People should stop thinking that a "heated" and a bit more serious discussion is always "agressive" or "insulting", that's nonsense. How many eskimos did I call "arseholes" for their contrary opinions? See.

[Hendrik]

@Jacob:

"if i walk into town wearing a tshirt saying "islam is stupid violent cuntish religion." i am most definately going to get beat up and maybe stabbed up. They are not right to do it, and their actions do indeed confirm violence. And i suppose u could say that i was simply expressing my thoughts, and using my freedom of speach. but it wouldn't matter cos i'd be dead."

Depends on where exactly you wear that t-shirt. If you wear it in Germany or Italy or another european country, you walk on freedom territory. If there are muslims who don't agree with my shirt, then they can sue me in my country. That's their only possibility to 'attack' me for my shirt. But if you wear it in Saudi-Arabia - as a foreigner and non-muslim - you must be nuts. I agree with you. But if you are a self-thinking muslim with humour and wear that kinda shirt in Saudi-Arabia then you're brave. (And possibly dead afterwards.)

"surely it would have been more consrtuctive to go study the religion, the tradition, go into the comunity, talk to people, understand and offer support, teach against violence."

Basically you're right and i can only support the (non-)muslims who do that! But if you teach against their violence and their "mistakes" in their country you're a dead (wo)men.
Friends have to have an open dialogue and that means friends can criticize their friends if they see possible mistakes. The right to pose questions. And if criticism (it can hurt, if someone critizes you and that person is right), even unjustified, brings up such violence and anger, there's something wrong on one side of the friendship. If a friend is wrong with his criticism you don't cry or get angry, you would lecture him/her in a peaceful tone and explain him/her that she/he's wrong and why exactly she/he's wrong. A simple and agressive "You can't do that!" is a very fine and detailled lecture, isn't it?

"People won't listen if they don't respect you."

Yes, but will those extremists learn that? I can't respect their threats and violent reactions.

"as for the removal of pigs, if there are employers forcing their employees to do this i think it's quite wierd and ott. but if it's employees doing it out of respect for their islamic fellow co-workers, good for them "

But do you agree on banning the word "blackboard" in England cos it could offend black people? I dunno. I mean, we have to draw a consequent line, otherwise we make fools out of ourselves and more importantly our system.

Does anybody know "Meet the Magoons" and could imagine this airing in an pure islamic country?