Is Face degrading/humiliating/abusive etc...

[viv]

In another thread a poster has criticized Face for being anti-woman, degrading, oppressive etc..... (I invite her....Lauren to explain for herself so I'm not putting words in her mouth) This take on the song struck me as a bit extreme and I'm wondering how some the rest of you feel.

By the way, I LOVE FACE!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tommy]

I think women get men to do things that demean them as much as men do it to women, for sure where I live I defintally think that its the women who have control over things.

[Dean C]

Just because he talks about a woman on her knees, doesn't mean that she's doing what you're implying. She could be doing many things, praying, pledging allegiance etc.

[Dean C]

No need to get sarcastic just because my cat pics pwn u like a n00b. My take on that line is that it can be taken one of two ways, I don't see the song as sexually charged at all.

[Dean C]

Originally Posted by LaurenBledsoe

Can you give examples of what you have witnessed specifically?

Also, I do agree that some women are abusive to men as well, however it is a drastically smaller number of women in comparison to so many men.

Again another sweeping generalization.

[Tommy]

I don’t know what it’s like in the states but over here I don’t see any division between men using women and women using men. For some strange reason all the men my age round here want relationships whereas the women don’t. The girls I know prefer to just "see" a guy which means that basically they shag for about three months and then the girl sods him off and find someone else. It’s definitely men who are the disposable sex. Men are expected to do many things nowadays as well, were expected to be kind, considerate and treat women as equals which is a good thing. Then again however you still hear "typical man" "that's a man's job" and other such derogatory phrases again used all the time over common media. Just look at UK programs like Loose Women where they just rip into men as a species daily. If this was done nowadays by a group of men on mainstream TV there would be uproar but its fine for women to do it. The same applies o any group of people who have been persecuted. Women can get away with being openly sexist now; racism towards white people from ethnic minorities is tolerated and even praised in such forms as music. Just because things used to be bad doesn’t make it acceptable and turn the tables now, two wrongs don’t make a right.

[Nine]

Originally Posted by LaurenBledsoe

How I know
Go bow end send mend bend pretend
Shut your face again
Bleed seed need read breath on my knees
How I choose to breath
Lie cry learn grow slow fall stall
How I build my wall
Hate wait bait kiss or taste the place
And make weather in my face

The only one that you know
I wanna live, wanna die, wanna grow old with you
I wanna be the only one that you know
'Cause I adore you
I do yeah

How I choose bruise loose win sin bin tease please
Better have her on her knees


These lyrics depict a woman bending to the sexual desires of a man. It is not the sexual acts implied that I find offensive, it is the way the woman depicted is expected to "pretend" she enjoys this. Damien depicts the patriarchal value of women when he states "better have her on her knees." This is repulsive. Deriving pleasure from the humiliation and domination of women is extremely offensive. A woman is not of lesser value than a man, and fantasizing about a woman being, for lack of better terms, slave-like, is offensive and reduces the value of women to less than human. Today's patriarchal culture gives the impression that women should look a certain way and act a certain way. This is reinforced when Damien says "Shut your face again." Women are not to be told not speak so that men can get what they want and not be troubled by the reality of the cruelty with which men can and many times do treat women.

It deeply saddens me that even our sensitive, romantic poet exudes the brain power of a patriarchal drone when it comes to the subject of sexuality.

All I ask is that women be treated as fully human, rather than the oppressed victims of a culture with distorted patriarchal values.

P.S. to all girls-
Take note of how men will try to convince you to do things that will make them respect you less. We deserve to be treated as equals.

Taking what you've said here and what you've said int he other thread about porn - i really think you have completely warped views about it all. You're taking everything so seriously and generalising so much. -

also, you have no concrete knowledge that this is what the song means, like with all other Damien songs. Better have her on her knees could simply mean i want to f*ck her doggy style, or I want her to give me a blow job. That isn't degrading as long as it's consensual.

The 'how I know go bow end send mend bend pretend' part - you don't know for sure he is talking about her. After all, the line begins 'how I" which would imply he's talking about himself.

Seriously, just calm down about the whole thing. I do agree that a lot of the time women are violated and degraded both in porn and real life. But I can't stand this attitude that some people have that everything that ever exists is demeaning to them. It's an extreme feminist view and it's ridiculous.

Originally Posted by LaurenBledsoe

yeah that's true! i mean damien rarely talks about sex anyways...yeah you are probably right...given the sexual lyrics of the entire song...he is probably talking about her praying...seriously?

What makes you so completely sure that the song is so completely sexual?

"I want to live, don't want to die, I want to grow old with you." "I adore you"

All seems pretty nice.

Originally Posted by Tommy

I don’t know what it’s like in the states but over here I don’t see any division between men using women and women using men. For some strange reason all the men my age round here want relationships whereas the women don’t. The girls I know prefer to just "see" a guy which means that basically they shag for about three months and then the girl sods him off and find someone else. It’s definitely men who are the disposable sex. Men are expected to do many things nowadays as well, were expected to be kind, considerate and treat women as equals which is a good thing. Then again however you still hear "typical man" "that's a man's job" and other such derogatory phrases again used all the time over common media. Just look at UK programs like Loose Women where they just rip into men as a species daily. If this was done nowadays by a group of men on mainstream TV there would be uproar but its fine for women to do it. The same applies o any group of people who have been persecuted. Women can get away with being openly sexist now; racism towards white people from ethnic minorities is tolerated and even praised in such forms as music. Just because things used to be bad doesn’t make it acceptable and turn the tables now, two wrongs don’t make a right.

You are so right, m'boy.

Lauren, you just seem to be ignoring the points that everyone is making, and repeating your view in a different way rather than responding with your arguments to specific points from the opposing view.

It alarms me that you are so deadset on this view that you refuse to listen to any kind of reason. I hope that maybe you can see from people's responses here and in the other thread that watching porn is a hell of a lot more commonplace and normal than you seemed to think.

I am curious to know what you think of the songs - woman like a man, and of Closer?

[Ships_Were_Sailin]

i agree, lauren seems to have gone overboard here, you say its degrading to all women, when you have no solid proof that the lyrics are degrading at all.

dont be so defensive and paranoid, why are you so willing to jump right into a "treat women right" argument just because of some lyrics youve seen and formed your own opinion on them. are you really helping your cause by bringing up this issue before you even know its grounds? id say its reactions like this that is causing the biggest problem with the whole women vs man issue, your so quick to turn yourself into a victim that you are blind to see that no-one is enforcing you to do so.

as for the whole women thing, times have changed, its not as bad as it used to be, and to be perfectly honest i dont see the reason in some of the things that that has happened due to this argument, like golf for example. Women cause a massive uproar when they arent allowed to play with men, so much so that they even succeed in their battle and play alongside men in their tournements, but can a man play in a womens tournement? oooooooohhhh god no, thats simply unthinkable! anyone see the sense in that?

but whatever, thats a different issue, im done here, sleepy time.

[Closing_Doors]

Originally Posted by viv

I just wanted to discuss the meaning of the song (which i don't think is an absurd thing to do) becuase it had, in my opinion, been grossly misintrpreted by someone else in another thread, but for all i knew the majority could have felt the same.

I don't think it's absurd to discuss the meaning of the song, I meant that the direction the thread had taken was absurd. My apologies...

Originally Posted by Nine

The 'how I know go bow end send mend bend pretend' part - you don't know for sure he is talking about her. After all, the line begins 'how I" which would imply he's talking about himself.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[julia]

I love this song. One of my absolute favorites .I find it sexual but I have never thought of it as demeaning.


I wanna be The only one that you know
I wanna live, don't wanna die, wanna grow old with you
I wanna be the only one that you know
'Cause I adore you
I do yeah


love this..


the rest of it...... I always thought of it as sexy in a Damien sort of way..
Which NEVER offends me..lol..!



cheers guy's.

[Bristlecone]

I'm not sure what to think about this thread. Maybe someone should ask Damien if he hates women, so then you can get up in arms over factual information, rather than interpreting a line from a song that supposedly 'degrades women,' oh Goodness no. Keeping in mind he seems a little peeved in most of his songs in the first place, so pardon him for getting out some offensive emotion every now and again. The truth of anger and sadness is seldom pretty.

Now let's all all try to make Volcano an offensive masterpiece - that 'hurt your knees' line probably means he's getting a blowjob.

[Livo]

i really doubt it contains anything too abusive, to be honest. i mean a lot of those words were probably chosen because of the rhyming scheme, more than anything else. and the chorus does kind of defy any statement of an abusive relationship:

"i wanna be the only one that you know, happily your placebo, i wanna be the only one that you know, cos i adore you"

though that is the sorta psychotic jealousy that you expect from a 17-year-old boy in a relationship, i don't think it's anything bad...

nice analysis by everyone else though

[Nine]

Originally Posted by Livo

"i wanna be the only one that you know, happily your placebo, i wanna be the only one that you know, cos i adore you"

That's the BellX1 version - Damien's doesn't have the line 'happily a placebo' - but I still agree with what you said!

[Hendrik]

"Amazing grace, come sit on my Face..."

Yeah, sure, definetely degrading!!

[Livo]

Originally Posted by Nine

That's the BellX1 version - Damien's doesn't have the line 'happily a placebo' - but I still agree with what you said!

haha woops! guess i'm more familiar with the bell x1 version

[A2_Blue]

Ok... So this may have been said already... I dont know but I do know im not going to read every post on this subject...

That being said, all I have to say is that, your mind makes up what the song is about when you hear it... so, there may not even be a difinetive meaning; just the one you hear when you listen to the song.

Damien has said so himself that he prefers not to explain what the meaning is behind some of his lyrics for the simple reason that that is a part of the enjoyment of listening to his music, the songs mean what you want them to. Therefore, it is very easy for a feminist (not that that is a bad thing) to see these lyrics as demeaning towards women.

oh btw... that cat is AWESOME (can I have him?)

[Bumpman]

Originally Posted by LaurenBledsoe

It deeply saddens me that even our sensitive, romantic poet exudes the brain power of a patriarchal drone when it comes to the subject of sexuality.

I fail to see your point; you claim that his "brain power" is equivalent to that of a "patriarchal drone" because of how he's chosen to describe his sexuality. Could you imagine an instance where someone might write those lyrics in the spirit of self-condemnation? If not, then is it possible that the reason for writing the song is to invite ideological criticism? Or that it's meant to be interpreted from someone other then his perspective? You've read the song entirely at face value. Paying a lot of attention to what he's talking about and very little attention to what he's saying.

A sense of irony leads me to believe that you're the drone. He's the renowned poet.

[borneoman]

He told the story about Face in the Washington gig, May 25, 2007... after Eskimo...

[viv]

do you have it? or could you summarize?