how many people are athiest?

[Closing_Doors]

^^ Wow I'm kind of embarassed I left the "until you look inside" bit out...It's fairly important

On topic: Just thought I'd mention that a lot of "atheists" I've encountered are just people too lazy to be religious (can't be bothered getting up on a Sunday morning etc.). Although whether they qualify as atheists....

Also re: the if you're not religious you have no morals debate.
I don't think the 2 things are necessarily equivalent but I do think they are related. Surely if you just think of the universe as nothing more than collections of atoms randomly wandering about, you won't believe in right or wrong. I mean, if I pour a load of hydrochloric acid over someone (and they die), is it an evil act or just a chemical reaction? Is it not as big a jump to believe in right and wrong as to believe in God (or at least some kind of power/purpose to the universe) ?

BTW Genuinely not trying to offend anyone with the above passage....I just think too much

On a final note, I really don't think it's fair to dismiss religion as just a mechanism for relieving people of the fear of being alone. You can't generalise so much....you don't know my greatest fear and I don't know yours. The thought of ceasing to exist when I die would scare me more than being alone....and wouldn't even be my greatest fear.

[The Pink Girly]

Originally Posted by Colbarr

I myself was Baptised as a Catholic and taught in school as a Catholic and therefore believe as a Catholic. I'm not religious but believe in what the church preaches. Heaven,Sin,Jesus, etc.

doesnt that make u religious? a catholic?

[Cali]

Originally Posted by Closing_Doors

On topic: Just thought I'd mention that a lot of "atheists" I've encountered are just people too lazy to be religious (can't be bothered getting up on a Sunday morning etc.). Although whether they qualify as atheists....

many people can have religious beliefs and not go to church or follow a religious doctrine. and most important there are people that don't believe in religious teaching and still believe in god

Originally Posted by Closing_Doors

Also re: the if you're not religious you have no morals debate.

I don't think the 2 things are necessarily equivalent but I do think they are related. Surely if you just think of the universe as nothing more than collections of atoms randomly wandering about, you won't believe in right or wrong. I mean, if I pour a load of hydrochloric acid over someone (and they die), is it an evil act or just a chemical reaction? Is it not as big a jump to believe in right and wrong as to believe in God (or at least some kind of power/purpose to the universe) ?


BTW Genuinely not trying to offend anyone with the above passage....I just think too much

religion and morals are two completely different things. morality is based not only on religious beliefs, but also on philosophical and cultural beliefs. and therefore it can be very relative. but one doesn't necessarily have to believe in a god to be righteous. IMHO, and i don't want to offend anybody, history has proven that strong religious beliefs can do much harm.

Originally Posted by Closing_Doors

On a final note, I really don't think it's fair to dismiss religion as just a mechanism for relieving people of the fear of being alone. You can't generalise so much....you don't know my greatest fear and I don't know yours. The thought of ceasing to exist when I die would scare me more than being alone....and wouldn't even be my greatest fear.

i didn't want to offend anybody, you're right i don't know you, but i wasn't talking about you, i was just refering to an anthopological theory about how people, even before civilization, started to develop religious beliefs (like when people started to bury the deads) and why. philosophers and anthopologist have always wonder why do people (in general) believe in a god and why is this, since almost by definition god's existence cannot be proven

i already wrote too much but i really like this kind of conversations, again i don't want to offend anybody, but i found this quote by einstein about morality and religion that i thought was interesting:


"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. ... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
— Albert Einstein, Religion and Science, New York Times Magazine (9 November 1930); also used in the obituary in New York Times (19 April 1955)

[SisterMidnight]

excellent quote. i pretty much believe that too (and have said as much to people on the issue of morals and religion though not so eloquently) but i find it strange that einstein said he 'cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere' given his huge faith in the power of imagination, the fact that he would say that or felt that he couldn't imagine such a thing strikes me as odd... i imagine there is something more...

[BIG TIM]

I believe there is a god, and everything i learn, every good idea that I hear I apply to my god. When ever I hear anything that makes sense to me or even something i see in a movie I find value from it or comfort.

thats the cool thing about faith, I believe my dog is going to be there waiting for me where ever I end up. and no one can convince me otherwise because i dont need any proof what so ever to believe that. so there is no fact that can prove me wrong.

My principal once told me when I was going through a tough time "There is someone holding a light for you" and its one of the most comforting things I have ever heard.

[eims]

yeah that is a really uplifting thought big tim..that someone is holding a light for you.

[BIG TIM]

yea its wierd because as I've said i have never really been big on religion but that was the first time that i realised that i dont have to be in a church or anything to believe in something.

[dizzy cannon]

on the back of the cards they gave out at my grandfathers funeral it says "yet all life is formed of small things, little leaves, make up the trees, many tiny drops of water blending, make the mighty seas" there more to it but that part always comforts me when im going through tough times because its like even though im going through something hard im just one drop of a big ocean and there probably someone going through something else like me or worse so it helps me to complain alot less

[Closing_Doors]

Originally Posted by Cali

many people can have religious beliefs and not go to church or follow a religious doctrine. and most important there are people that don't believe in religious teaching and still believe in god

True, and I'd didn't mean to imply otherwise. From personal experience, I just happen to have met a number of people who just aren't bothered about being religious and kind of fall into being "atheists".

Originally Posted by Cali

religion and morals are two completely different things. morality is based not only on religious beliefs, but also on philosophical and cultural beliefs. and therefore it can be very relative. but one doesn't necessarily have to believe in a god to be righteous. IMHO, and i don't want to offend anybody, history has proven that strong religious beliefs can do much harm.

But is it not fair to say that to believe in right or wrong is as big a leap of faith as to believe in God? Is it wrong to throw a rock off the edge of a cliff? Is it wrong to throw a person off the edge of a cliff? What's the difference? To believe to throw the person over the edge is wrong is to believe we are more than cosmic dust. While this is not neccessarily the same as believing in a God (though I would argue it is tantamount to believing in the soul), it is heavily linked (as heavily as philosophy and religion).

And yes strong religious beliefs have on occasion done great harm, but let us not forget they have also done great good.

Originally Posted by Cali

i didn't want to offend anybody, you're right i don't know you, but i wasn't talking about you, i was just refering to an anthopological theory about how people, even before civilization, started to develop religious beliefs (like when people started to bury the deads) and why. philosophers and anthopologist have always wonder why do people (in general) believe in a god and why is this, since almost by definition god's existence cannot be proven

Maybe because there is a God!
Seriously though, I've never bought into the idea that you can generalise the human mind. I remember watching a program on T.V. and some psychologist was basically saying that if he studied someone enough he could accurately predict their reaction to any given situation. I was actually physically angry watching this guy....you can't just define the mind, it's too complex. Anyway that was a bit off point!

Originally Posted by Cali

i already wrote too much but i really like this kind of conversations, again i don't want to offend anybody, but i found this quote by einstein about morality and religion that i thought was interesting:


"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. ... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
— Albert Einstein, Religion and Science, New York Times Magazine (9 November 1930); also used in the obituary in New York Times (19 April 1955)

Feel free to write as much as you like...nothing like a good debate over the meaning of existance

Just though I'd point out Einstein did actually believe in God....although from the above passage I guess it came and went

[Gazel]

I believe in something, but I'm not sure what. I try to believe in a god, a spirit, a creator or whatever you want to call it, but not really one that is interpreted through any of the major religions.

I want to believe something, but a lot of the time I find it hard to comprehend that a god could even exist. Our consciousness has only known what its like to have been alive, therefore it's impossible for our brain to accept or imagine what death would be like. I think that's why religion and a belief in God first came about in the first place: for reassurance and comfort, its the only way in which we are able to comprehend and accept what death is like from only knowing life.

I guess this makes me agnostic, right?

[SilentNight]

it's a long long way to go

[rosey]

I can't be arsed writing out my own views but this statement from the 'Humanist Society of Scotland' pretty much sums up how I feel about the whole 'god' thing.

"Since the beginning of history, questions about our origins and existence have been asked. There have been people who maintained that, by means of the study of life on the planet and our relationship with it, rational and acceptable answers to such questions have been available. This we believe to be a Humanist attitude to life.

In the past, primitive knowledge and lack of sophisticated modern means allowed other answers, based on mythology, superstition and religion to gain credence. People were too busy staying alive to have time to stop, think and learn. Especially if these answers were delivered by soothsayers, witch doctors or priests; rival explanations did enough to satisfy the needs of most questioners.

By the last years of the 20th Century, we have a wealth of knowledge about the evolution of our planet and of the history of its various species, especially that of Homo sapiens.

The evidence that we, like other life forms, are a product of the self-perpetuating process of evolution is overwhelming. There is no suggestion that we have been created by any other means than this process or that we exist for any instinct other than survival and reproduction. Purpose is something we put into our lives.
Ethics and Morality

As there is no real evidence that we as individuals will live after our death, Humanists accept that this is our only life and that we should try to make it as worthwhile and happy as possible for ourselves and for others. We believe that we must face the opportunities and problems of the world with human co-operation but without supernatural help.

We are concerned with right and wrong. We believe that morality is a product of upbringing and developing thought and that it has to do with how we treat other people, ideally with kindness, consideration and unselfishness. We accept the importance of the rights of people throughout the world. The principles of morality enshrined in the declarations, covenants and conventions of human rights as promulgated by the United Nations are too little known in this country. There is need for a human moral code if we, as humans, are to live peaceably together.
The Humanist Society of Scotland

Wherever suitable opportunities occur, our members try to stress their individual Humanist viewpoint. We are specially eager to be involved in issues affecting education and the rights of children. We are opposed to religious bigotry that permits denominational schools to continue to exist and to compulsory religious observance in state schools.

The Humanist opinion is increasingly voiced in the media - most frequently on moral issues such as euthanasia, abortion, equal opportunities and minority rights. We are opposed to religious indoctrination. We believe thinking on moral and ethical issues is best isolated from a religious context - so enabling it to keep pace with the growth of knowledge and social change.
A Humanist Voice

We visit secondary schools and discuss with RE classes the Humanist philosophy. We also produce literature on Humanism for schools which is needed for the national curriculum. We publish a quarterly magazine, Humanism Scotland. We also provide trained and experienced officiants, literature, guidelines and practical help for those who prefer non-religious weddings and funerals - see Humanist Rites of Passage.
Social Issues

Humanists co-operate with other people including many with religious beliefs. But co-operation is not always possible. On some issues, Humanists are pressing for a rational and humane approach to end the harmful results of some religious attitudes.

Examples of changes Humanists want to see:

* Abortion available when necessary, the woman rather than the doctor having the final choice.
* Legal voluntary euthanasia for adults - the right to die with dignity when one chooses.
* Women valued as highly as men.
* Greater tolerance towards minority groups eg homosexuals or immigrants.
* Contraception available to all. The Catholic church in particular has caused untold suffering throughout the world by its opposition to birth control.
* Better distribution of the world's resources to help relieve poverty."

Sorry it's so big.

[BIG TIM]

Hey Rosey,

sorry Im going to be a pain and ask if you really believe every word of what you posted?

I find it a lot more interesting that people have their opinions based on a collective ground of information. for the simple reason that I can find a lot of information to go against what you have just posted. but on the other hand no one could ever argue with you when you state Your own beliefs in your own words.

peace.

[rosey]

Originally Posted by BIG TIM

sorry Im going to be a pain and ask if you really believe every word of what you posted?

Sorry for just lifting that and quoting the whole thing - I was on here for the first time in a few days and the topic jumped out at me and after a quick read through the posts thought I'd add 'my view' - I didn't have time to put it in my own words , but yes, I pretty much agree with the Humanist view.

So basically I don't believe in a higher being or in heaven or hell but I believe that you're born, you live, you die.....you rot away or are burnt to dust or whatever you're chosen means of disposal is. And while we're doing the 'living' bit I feel we should do all we can to makes the lives of all those who are living at the same time as good as is possible.
As lovely as it would be to think of my friends and family and even my dog eventually joining me in some eternal bliss surrounded by angels....I really don't think it's going to happen.

And I know that probably sounds all very simplistic but I'm happy with my beliefs....infact, if I'm proven wrong and do end up in floating on some cloud with a winged creature strumming a harp beside me then I'm going to be very pissed off......I think 'the burnie fire' would be more my sort of place anyway.

[BIG TIM]

sweet as, I respect that.

I was just making sure you actually thought that way. I get annoyed when people just throw quotes into the conversation with no point but to be arguementitive you know what I mean.

I totally agree with doing the most you can while your alive though.

[Bumpman]

I believe in balance. I always hear people saying that if God is all powerful, all loving and all forgiving, then why do bad things happen... i always thought that people should have already realised that our free will gives us the power to do both good and evil. If there was no pain in the world then we wouldn't be free.

As for God, if no evidence were to exist in this world to show that God is there, then my thumb would be evidence enough to put her existence beyond a doubt in my mind.

[Livo]

i'm a catholic, but not a strict one. i believe in god, etc, but i'm kinda skeptical about it and i don't agree with the "eat and you'll go to hell, drink and you'll go to hell, have sex and you'll go to hell, curse and you'll go to hell, be gay and you'll go to hell" ethos of the catholic church. i suppose i believe in balance, like bumpan said, like with physics the way for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. everything you do has its repercussions and you can't stop that.

woah i've gone on for too long.

[Bumpman]

Well the catholic church is a very different thing from jesus. If you ask me it was a misjudged religion from the start, when jesus and peter were standing on (what would become) st peter's rock, jesus put his hand on peter's shoulder and said "upon this rock, i will build my church"... peter thought that he was literally talking about the rock, when he was really talking about peter.

I guess it's a metaphor for the church as a whole, the general concensus is that to be a good catholic, you have to physically go to a church (or the metaphorical rock)... whereas the original idea was that if you have good in your heart, that's all you'll ever need to be, (the metaphorical peter).

Of course if you don't believe that a 16 year old virgin could give birth to a man who can walk on water and make one fish into loads of fish... then i personally find it easier to believe that if there ever was a jesus, the most likely explanation of his greatness is that he was a man who was both approachable and wise... and that combination was too much for the world to handle. As usual.

[cello_pudding]

catholic is a word that used to mean universal. like the christian universal. but now its split like catholic and protestant. etc...

peter was technically the first pope if you think about it

[snowbaby]

Originally Posted by Gazel

I believe in something, but I'm not sure what. I try to believe in a god, a spirit, a creator or whatever you want to call it, but not really one that is interpreted through any of the major religions.

I want to believe something, but a lot of the time I find it hard to comprehend that a god could even exist. Our consciousness has only known what its like to have been alive, therefore it's impossible for our brain to accept or imagine what death would be like. I think that's why religion and a belief in God first came about in the first place: for reassurance and comfort, its the only way in which we are able to comprehend and accept what death is like from only knowing life.

I guess this makes me agnostic, right?

no it makes you a deist/theist however you wanna spell it. that's what i am too!!!! its when you believe in a higher power but your not sure what the story is after that!!

[snowbaby]

Originally Posted by cello_pudding

catholic is a word that used to mean universal. like the christian universal. but now its split like catholic and protestant. etc...

peter was technically the first pope if you think about it

ya peter was the first pope. in the vatican city where they have the list of all the popes that we've ever had the first one is peter but its written in latin *apparently* ive never been there myself

[SisterMidnight]

Originally Posted by jasonAVO

hey sister, nice to see you again.(Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
- Albert Einstein, in The New Convergence)
einstein also said he hoped to learn how god created the universe and that god doesnt play dice..... i just think he had a different vision of what 'god' even means. sister....go get what the bleep do we know.....you will love it.

yay jason's back!! nice to see you again too stranger!

*makes mental note of recommendation and to run -not walk- to video store*