Jesus Camp

[buddy]

watch and discuss.

(i just won two tickets to see the movie in a radio call in contest [i LOVE npr]. i'm in a good mood. )

[Miss Pink]

im actually extremally confused.

just because it is a jesus camp,there wont be much ridicule, BUT if it were an Allah camp....therre would be uproar.

This in a sense in X-tian extremeism.

the kid said he was saved at 5?! At five the only saving thingy that i had was being picked up when i fell.

i dontno whether its right or wrong...its brainwashing.

[Ms Lady]

wow. as a born again christian i find it amazing that these kids have such fire in their hearts for Jesus. But, i can also see how it may seem a bit too much, or intense for non-christians (ie those who arent born again).

I dont think Bible camps brainwash, they're just a place for people to go when they want to learn more about Jesus (its mainly children that go to summer camps but there are opportunities for grown ups too)
and you have to remember that some christians, especially evangelicals, are very passionate and intense when they speak, so its not unusual if people are freaked out by it if they're not used to it.

Miss pink...i dont find it strange at all that the boy was saved at 5 years old. in the bible Jesus puts the children first - and from my experience children often understand christianity in its purest form much better than adults. i know a guy who was saved when he was 3, and is still a committed christian.

anywho i have so much more but dont want to ramble, no-one reads the long posts anyways!!

[WhatAmIDarling?]

Hm. I have mixed feelings. I mean, part of me doesn't care what other people do so long as they do it peacefully and respectfully. To each his own, and all. But the part about how if all of the evangelicals voted, they could determine the election scared me. It was also a little scary to see such young children being affected so profusely by Christianity. I am a firm believer in being able to change your mind. It just seems to me like these kids won't grow up to be able to use the full capacity of their minds--it's confining to be set in your ways.

[PenguinBoy]

I smell dissagreement.

surely this is the same kinda stuff that islamic extremist say, just replace the word god with allah, and jesus with mohammed (i know mohamed isn't supposed to be the savior) and it's exactly the same. With so much in common u'd think they'd understand each other. But no, One is "evil" and the other is "beautiful".

And it's easy to say "non-christians don't get it" (i'm not mis-quoting/implying you ms lady, i was just prompted into thought by ur post) it's as easy as me saying "religious people don't get it". Fact is i believe what i believe, you believe what you believe. Christians try to make me born-again-again. Then we all die... the end.... OR an alternative ending: christians go to heaven, and i refuse to beg forgiveness from a huge pie then go to hell and suffer for blissful eternity.

(For more alternative endings, investigate each of the quintillions of other religions)

This is genious:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yxnyq9Lhrc

All that woman is doing is creating a zillion more people to try and convert/annoy me who have only ever read one good book. And have no other interests.

Each to their own is something i'd fight for, but givem a chance to chose their "own" when they've HAD a childhood. Variation is the spice of life. Or atleast that's what i thought. Maybe jesus is the spice of life.

[PenguinBoy]

Originally Posted by WhatAmIDarling?

Hm. I have mixed feelings. I mean, part of me doesn't care what other people do so long as they do it peacefully and respectfully. To each his own, and all. But the part about how if all of the evangelicals voted, they could determine the election scared me. It was also a little scary to see such young children being affected so profusely by Christianity. I am a firm believer in being able to change your mind. It just seems to me like these kids won't grow up to be able to use the full capacity of their minds--it's confining to be set in your ways.

i didn't think about that... that woman said something like "i want these kids to grow up and be able to put their lives on the line for what they believe, the same way as our enimies will. But the difference is, please forgive me, we've got the truth" not a direct quote but close enough.

Each to there own, but don't go killing and torturing on behalf of your "own", i thought that was up to satan anyhow. If these non-christians are so bad, leave them to live a little (mercy) before they suffer for eternity.

The problem is, people with such strong and direct beliefs are usually very easilly manipulated, because they can be used against them. "VOTE FOR PRESIDENT ZOG HE'S AN EVANGELICAL AND WILL DO THE LORDS WORK... IF NOT... YOU GO TO HELL!!!"

[Hendrik]

All I can say is...ACCEPT THE LIGHT OF JESUS CHRIST!

[Ms Lady]

Originally Posted by PenguinBoy

And it's easy to say "non-christians don't get it" (i'm not mis-quoting/implying you ms lady, i was just prompted into thought by ur post) it's as easy as me saying "religious people don't get it". .......

.......Each to their own is something i'd fight for, but givem a chance to chose their "own" when they've HAD a childhood. .

its not that i'm saying that non-christians don't, or can't, get it, its just that i think that a person without a personal relationship with God might see it all as bein too intense, or harmful even. dont get me wrong, this is an intense video but i think its easier for a non-christian person to immediately say "thats wrong" or "thats brainwashing" simply because they dont know first hand how powerful God is and also, because they're not used to people speaking so passionately(especially in Ireland where most people were brought up in the catholic church, which is not particularly renound for its passionate sermons)

and just about what you said bout the kids having a chance to chose, this is a camp for born again christian children - ie children who have chosen to follow God for themselves, not by their parents or teachers or pastors but by themselves. and i know this because its a fundamental part of being born again!!

i'm not here to argue, or disrespect anyone or anything. I just feel the need to defend the christian side.

[PenguinBoy]

hmmm, i don't wanna argue either, and i think this thread has done pretty well to survive nearly 10 hours without getting personal.

When i was that age, i believed in God, i'd have defended him to the death (literally). Also santa, also the tooth fairy. The mind is more powerful than reason OR moral sometimes, and if u can fathom a feeling, then you can most probably simulate it as vividly as day. Is that a risk to take? When there's no reason why all the options all the religions all the literatures and all the cultures can't be shown calmly to children. With no guilt tripping and no abusing of fundamental human insecurities. Children will WANT to make a choice. They really should be encouraged not to, and that it's OK to go back on ur word, and to always continue seeking more information.

These children may have, in the conventional sense, made a choice. But is it really that much of a choice when ur told by your elders, people who u have been taught are always right, people who you've been told always should be respected and listened to that if you do not do and believe what they tell you, you WILL suffer for eternity. And when these adults say it so clearly and emotionally you KNOW it's true.

I didn't intend to attack what u believe, but in a way i have. I hope u don't get annoyed. Or atleast don't mind defending it.

PS (edit) : i wouldn't say what u said bout the irish cathlics yno, not really accurate at all, especially when it comes to people being passionate (or extremist). and i ain't irish, and i KNOW people like on the vid. - just to clear up that possibility.

[Timeé]

my religion teacher basically admitted to me the last day that God DIDNT create the world and that the gospels made up all the parables to make him seem more invincible.

i mean talk about turning me further away from the church!!!

i use Mass as meditation instead of ..( )

tis so feckin corrupt that they'd take me anyway.

[Hendrik]

Just don't justify everything with "passion", Ms Lady.
And what is that anyway..."being passionate"? Isn't that a very shaky term?

[Ms Lady]

Hendrick, i'm not trying to justify anything with passion - i was using the adjective "passionate" to describe how people speak. I'm sorry for its overuse - wasnt done intentionally. could have used heated, strong, excited, emotional...i could go on but i'm pretty sure you get it.

And penguin boy, my remark about irish catholics wasnt aimed at specifics. I grew up in a catholic church (although i dont attend one now). Any sermon i ever heard there, or any other catholic church, was never delivered with the same feeling (see?different word...) as, say, evangelical sermons you see on tv. or sermons i have heard in churches of different denominations. I'm not having a go at catholics, far from it, and i'm also not saying that you dont know people like these in real life. it was just an example to illustrate how people might not be used to speakers that get worked up when they talk.

and don't worry, i'm well used to defending my faith

[Closing_Doors]

Originally Posted by Ms Lady

i know a guy who was saved when he was 3, and is still a committed christian.

Saved from what!? That's just demented...

(Born and raised Catholic too so you can spare the "you wouldn't understand" routine. That video was scary.)

[Ms Lady]

Originally Posted by Closing_Doors

Saved from what!? That's just demented...

(Born and raised Catholic too so you can spare the "you wouldn't understand" routine. That video was scary.)

"saved" is a term equivalent to being born again, maybe i should have used that instead.

and i'm not doing any routine...i agree that the video is intense. i'm not trying to say that the video is completely normal and that you dont understandn because you grew up catholic, not at all. yes there are some "scary" things in it - the kid speaking in tongues can be frightening if you dont know what it is. I dont agree with all of it. But thats the whole reason its causing so much uproar everywhere, because it is extreme.

and again, i'm not trying to offend, or rile people up. I seem to be the only person preseting this side of the discussion - surely to have a discussion or debate about something you need two sides?!

[PenguinBoy]

edit: irrelivant stuff

[Anja]

Hmm i have been in "bible camps" since i can think. My protestant chuch has a holiday home and ive been there so many times over weekends and so on. The problem about the video is that there are some types of christians who life there faith very obviously like the "Pfingstler" with their spirit christening and when they "talk in tongues" (sorry i dunno the english words). But its so typical that they show these christians and this group is just a very small group under the christians. (Like the witnesses of Jehowa) The worship part is maybe normal but there are some things you could only see in those groups and now everybody thinks all christians are like that aaahrghh. And thats even for nomal christians and churches weird...

[Ms Lady]

Originally Posted by Yanka

But its so typical that they show these christians and this group is just a very small group under the christians. (Like the witnesses of Jehowa) The worship part is maybe normal but there are some things you could only see in those groups and now everybody thinks all christians are like that aaahrghh. And thats even for nomal christians and churches weird...

agree completely

[sahika]

this thing is just so scary that I can not watch it again..the idea of training their own little pure soldiers..why do we need religions if they can only make us to be drowned in deep water of the unknown rivers??

[Hendrik]

"Are you a part of it or not?"...this is the key sentence of the camp that I despise. We should know better to not dice up people into little groups for real. These kiddos should be runnin around in the garden, naked, smoking spliffs, having their first intercourse and...no, wait, just kiddin!

That camp reminds me of the Hitler Jugend training. All in liiiiine!

It also reminds me of the "Dead poets society" scene where Mr. Keating encourages the boys to walk differently in the school yard to develop their individuality. But this, the J-Camp, is the total opposite of it, it doesn't seem that these kids are encouraged to think for themselves, they even shout in synch, have a look.

Originally Posted by sahika

this thing is just so scary that I can not watch it again..the idea of training their own little pure soldiers..

Well, this happens in any other religion as well...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HlaVpqUXF0&eurl=

[droovin]

i didn't watch the video, and i don't think i want to. basically, i see it as this:

why complain about Islamic and Muslim faiths, when Christianity is, in some ways, just the same/as bad. "you may be afraid of it because you don't understand it" or whatever has been said. you can say EXACTLY the same for other religions. what's the difference between one of these children growing up and "dying for their belief" and another child who is Muslim and doing the same? to me, organised religion hasn't quite got it. every one has part of the correct answer, but no one religion can say that it is perfect. what i also hate is being told what to believe. these kids haven't made a conscious choice, let's be fair about it. they're so young that they can be told what to believe in, in an indirect way. like someone has already said in one of the other posts, it's hard for a child to disagree with an elder who they look up to or who they think of as being always right. that's not making a conscious choice. and yeh, what HAVE they got to be saved from? they're so young!

i don't know. i'll just hush up about this now cos i have some varied views on all of this and there isn't much point in expressing them cos they may just be disregarded or whatever. don't get me wrong, i am not having a go at people's faith. everyone needs something to believe in. just sometimes, i wonder are they right? is anyone right? ya just don't know

[carvinC980t_kid]

i found the video hendrik posted about 1billion more times disturbing.

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by droovin

don't get me wrong, i am not having a go at people's faith.

But you should, you can if you want to. It makes people question their own believe and that's healthy. If they can't deal with stuff like that, you've proven that their faith is brittle. Simple as that.

You could even make fun at my believes, i wouldn't give a damn, at least i wouldn' cut your eye out, maybe only roast your balls, who knows.

[droovin]

Originally Posted by Hendrik

But you should, you can if you want to. It makes people question their own believe and that's healthy. If they can't deal with stuff like that, you've proven that their faith is brittle. Simple as that.

You could even make fun at my believes, i wouldn't give a damn, at least i wouldn' cut your eye out, maybe only roast your balls, who knows.

well that's fair enough. at least you're mature enough to be like that!

and i'll have to give the ball roasting a pass cheers. they're happy enough as they are now

[Five Leaves Left]

this kind off stuff really pissess me off. I happen to believe in biblical Christianity and its people like this that make Christians look like complete idiots (because many of the people who say that they are Christians are). People in the Christian Faith are degrading Christianity to the point where it becomes so simplified that it is based on mere feelings, feelings are not and should not be a criteria for truth, everyone has different feelings just because you feel so strongly for something does not mean that it is true; if it did than a lot of the truth in the world would contradict itself which would make it not truth at all. The feeling-based Christians, often assioctied to what is called "Penecostals," unknowingly take away the intellectual aspect of biblical Christianity, they get caught up in a whirlwind of feelings and it is those feelings that determine how they think. there's a lot more i could complain about this but its 1:10 am and i'm going to bed.

-Mike

[Five Leaves Left]

Originally Posted by WhatAmIDarling?

Hm. I have mixed feelings. I mean, part of me doesn't care what other people do so long as they do it peacefully and respectfully. To each his own, and all. But the part about how if all of the evangelicals voted, they could determine the election scared me. It was also a little scary to see such young children being affected so profusely by Christianity. I am a firm believer in being able to change your mind. It just seems to me like these kids won't grow up to be able to use the full capacity of their minds--it's confining to be set in your ways.

with regards to the voting thing, the United States is a Representative Republic, so the government is supposed to represent the people as best as they can; if the evangelicals are the majority of the population than the government should represent them because in a representative republic the gov't is supposed to represent the majority, not neccesarily meaning their supposed to exclude the minority of course. however, the gov't is also supposed to abide by seperation of church and state, to not do this would be to contradict the very values that the United States was founded upon.

[Five Leaves Left]

Originally Posted by Ms Lady

Hendrick, i'm not trying to justify anything with passion - i was using the adjective "passionate" to describe how people speak. I'm sorry for its overuse - wasnt done intentionally. could have used heated, strong, excited, emotional...i could go on but i'm pretty sure you get it.[/i]

don't get too caught up in the idea of passion, passion does not and never will make something true. after all in the past passionate people have done horrible things, such as the passionate "muslims" who blow themselves up for Allah and the passionate "Christians" who fought in "holy" wars and crusades in the name of Jesus Christ. passion is dangerous and never, alone, defines truth. many people have died in the name of passion.

[katiejoey]

Being a Catholic myself I have a tremendous faith in God and believe that we should all live in the peaceful way that He intended. I send my daughter to Catholic school and hope that she'll have the same love for God that I have. However, I found this video extremely disturbing in the same way that I find child beauty pagents disturbing. I'm not saying that people should not take their beliefs seriously but this just reminded me too much of adults trying to force their children to believe what they themselves believe. My daughter loves going to Church and saying a Prayer before supper but I have never forced her to do either things and just like any normal 6 year old she has her moments in church where she gets bored and restless. This is incredibly disturbing because as a mother of a 6 year old I am pretty certain that no child this age or younger could have this kind of attitude as these young children in the video without it being constantly shoved down their throats.

[Cali]

those videos are all f*cked up. instead of killing and judging each other, we should all kill and judge our gods

[katiejoey]

i think we should all just get along (and i am serious by saying that!!).

[Cali]

it's not possible when people have concepts like 'infidels', 'chosen people', 'one god', 'heaven' and 'hell'. history has proven that religions cause more harm than good