Introduction to Cello?? please help

Timeé · 08-01-2006, 07:43 PM

I am interested in playing cello. I play guitar and piano and am wondering would i be best off learning violin first and then move on???

and also how much money roughly are you talking to spend for a decent cello?

Bumpman · 08-01-2006, 08:53 PM

Decent how? You could spend €50,000 on what some people might call decent. I'd say go shopping with $700 for a student cello, make sure it's full sized (4/4 size). Don't bother with the violin, just get the cello and start playing. Don't buy a cello from the more conventional shops either. Here's a good place to start looking.

I actually encountered the same cello dilemma about eight months ago, the advice I was given from on high, was to try all the music school noticeboards (The College of Music on Chatham Row, The Academy of Music on Westland Row and Walton's School of Music on George's St). Private sales might not be a bad idea.

Greenmeanie · 08-01-2006, 09:44 PM

wow I've wanted to learn cello too for absolutely ages, I recon this is a sign... 700 euros tho - man thats about 600 pounds isn't it. Hm.

Timeé · 08-01-2006, 09:45 PM

decent as in cheap

something to add more sound.

starting off kinda one.
hmmm maybe i should wait 700 sounds teenily steep

Beevers_uk · 08-01-2006, 10:05 PM

I sued to play when i was in primary school, played for about 5 years!

Bumpman · 08-02-2006, 01:39 AM

I'd sue a primary school if I could too

That's why I was advised to check the music schools Timmy, because there are people who buy them for €700, then become very good. Save all their pennies, and splash out two grand. They then sell the first one for half the price... You only have to wait if you're not planning on using that thing between your ears.

Mr Green, as the stock market stands, €700 is £478.

Timmy, if you're just looking for something to add sound there's no reason to wait, buy an old trumpet from an antiques shop and use that, or get a viola and string it with electric guitar strings, It worked for John Cale. That is if you're just looking to create an interesting sound... As far as 99% of bands today are concerned, an "interesting sound" is a six note bass solo. It doesn't take much to be creative with music, the startling thing is that most people are quite comfortable to sit around doing what everyone has done before, but with worse lyrics. Just do something you haven't already seen.

Cello can be fantastic though, despite how it looks it's relatively easy to get a good sound out of. It works really well with other instruments, especially since you don't have frets to worry about, everything just gets itself into key.

Greenmeanie · 08-02-2006, 08:18 AM

Just for the record, it's ms. Thanks for your music school idea tho, I'll be having a shop around too.

Bumpman · 08-02-2006, 12:23 PM

No problem sir.

carvinC980t_kid · 08-02-2006, 11:06 PM

yeah, a 700dollar, i know euros are different from dollars, cell is a very cheap cello. i own an inespensive cello that cost $1200. i just got rid of my last stand up bass and bought a new one about half a year ago and it is only an ok one and it cost me $4300. it's older, but i bought it in near perfect condition for being used. my buddy has a nice double bass that cost him $6500 and it is in horrible condition, but it sounds amazing. but to most professional musicians a $10,000 stringed instrument is a cheap one. really nice classical guitars start around $30,000 and can reach over $100,000. which is just insane.

don't bother learning another stringed instrument first. if you DO want to learn something besides cello don't learn violin... learn the viola. it, like the cello, has a C string. the violin and cello have different strings.

cello strings starting from the lowest string is C, G, D, A.

a violin is from lowest to highest G, D, A, E.

a bass from lowest to highest is E, A, D, G.

a viola is like the cello C, G, D, A.

cello is prolly one of the easiest stringed instruments to learn. It is the easiest to lear vibrato on and it isn't nearly as hard to learn to bow properly such as a violin or viola. bass is complicated, because you have to learn to play with your elbow up and stretch farther while being accurate. also you have to adjust your body movement alot to goto the low E string on bass.

i'd say get about 700 together and go find a nice starter cello. get some how-to books on it and you'll be set. also, if you buy from a shop then have them teach you the correct technique on how to use the tuning pegs on Cello's, because it is VERY VERY easy to break strings and bridges on cello's. they can show you how to do that properly and you could prolly get them to tune it perfectly and then put tape markings on which will show you the correct spots to put your fingers when learning and if you keep it in tune everytime you play they will basically be in the correct spots all of the time.

good luck man!

carvinC980t_kid · 08-02-2006, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumpman

I'd sue a primary school if I could too

That's why I was advised to check the music schools Timmy, because there are people who buy them for €700, then become very good. Save all their pennies, and splash out two grand. They then sell the first one for half the price... You only have to wait if you're not planning on using that thing between your ears.

Mr Green, as the stock market stands, €700 is £478.

Timmy, if you're just looking for something to add sound there's no reason to wait, buy an old trumpet from an antiques shop and use that, or get a viola and string it with electric guitar strings, It worked for John Cale. That is if you're just looking to create an interesting sound... As far as 99% of bands today are concerned, an "interesting sound" is a six note bass solo. It doesn't take much to be creative with music, the startling thing is that most people are quite comfortable to sit around doing what everyone has done before, but with worse lyrics. Just do something you haven't already seen.

Cello can be fantastic though, despite how it looks it's relatively easy to get a good sound out of. It works really well with other instruments, especially since you don't have frets to worry about, everything just gets itself into key.

don't wanna aruge, but saying everything just gets itself into key is... uh.. well, not correct at all. it is alot easier to play OUT of tune with other people on a fretless instrument and to play well with others you have to be dead on.

Bumpman · 08-02-2006, 11:43 PM

I meant that in terms of wanting to add an interesting sound to something that already exists, what with the strings at a low C and G and all that, in the beginning stages of playing you could concieveably play a cello part that sounded somewhat substantial but required very little effort.

carvinC980t_kid · 08-02-2006, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumpman

I meant that in terms of wanting to add an interesting sound to something that already exists, what with the strings at a low C and G and all that, in the beginning stages of playing you could concieveably play a cello part that sounded somewhat substantial but required very little effort.

oh ok. i got ya... i was just like... what is this guy talking about? lol

yes, also, it makes it easier to play cello also, because you can play the bass music easily too! cellos tend to use two clefs. the C cleff and then the bass clef. mhmm... low C is such a beautiful sound and the tone is unmatched by anyother instrument!!

do you play any stringed instruments, besides guitar, bumpman? play in any orchestras or anything?

Bumpman · 08-03-2006, 02:49 AM

If by orchestra you mean a four-piece experimental noise ensemble, then yes, yes I do. I play guitar, piano, cello, bass, drums, harmonica, synth, djembe, I do a lot of sampling, I play a few instruments that I don't even know the names of and I play the spoons... yeah that's right, I play the spoons. And what's more, I'm barely even embarrassed.

carvinC980t_kid · 08-03-2006, 03:56 PM

that is awesome bumpman!!!

right now i'm in a jam band where we are running alot of weird synth effects on our recordings and alot of weird guitar effects live. it's pretty crazy. we just like to screw around cause my friend has a nice PA and some dec. recording equipment. i play guitar, electric bass, stand up bass, violin, cello, harmonica, piano, lap-steel, drums, classical guitar (a whole different world of music!), and then i play some minor keyboard work, then i do alot of sampling and electronic beats on a korg sampler/drum machine. my brother just got a new djembe cause his old one got stolen, so i like to play around on that too. but i love running a lap steel into an effects processor... it sounds so f*cked up! lol oh yeah, and i can barely play the flute! its fun, but i don't have any really serious band going. i'd love to have a band where i just f*cking rock out on my guitar playing sweet jams, badd a** solos, and use trippy sound effects.

mad props for the spoons though!! a kid at my school played the song "spoon man" for a guitar concert at school a few years ago and he completely sucked it up while playing the spoons.

any samples or recordings of your little band you got going? i'd love to hear another fellow eskimos work who seems to be going the same musical direction as me!

cello_pudding · 08-03-2006, 04:29 PM

i own a 1250 dollar cello.

but i got it used from ebay. 260 + 30 shipping= 300.

now that's a CHEAP cello.

its sounds decent with good strings on it. the bow and your fingers are where a good portion of the tone will come from.

i had to really dig through a lot of lame cellos on ebay to find a decent one though.

go for it for sure though. not enough string players in the world. if you want to get something cheap...get a viola. i love it's size and its range and NO ONE plays viola. i like cello a lot more, but if you want to be different and play a string, viola is a cool option too.

cello_pudding · 08-03-2006, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumpman

If by orchestra you mean a four-piece experimental noise ensemble, then yes, yes I do. I play guitar, piano, cello, bass, drums, harmonica, synth, djembe, I do a lot of sampling, I play a few instruments that I don't even know the names of and I play the spoons... yeah that's right, I play the spoons. And what's more, I'm barely even embarrassed.

got any recordings? i'm a folk/classical (nick drakish) guitarist that plays cello, violin, piano, accordion, glockenspiel, bass, drums...no spoons though.

we sound like a similar breed. do you like the tosca string quartet? you should watch the movie "a waking life" or go to www.myspace.com/toscastringquartet and listen to mi otra mitad de.... REALLY cool music.

carvinC980t_kid · 08-03-2006, 07:10 PM

Cell_pudding

yeah, i agree. on my cello i found the tone to be sub par but not too bad, but when i sold my bow and bought a new one that cost me 400bucks it just made the tone sound so much better! it also uses black hair on it, which looks cool too! i need a new cello bow though, because i traded mine old one in and then replaced it with a new one that i make payments on, because this way if any damage occurs they'll fix it for free instead of me straight up owning it right away and now since the weather got all crazy the bow doesn't tighten up enough anymore, so i have to have it fixed. i also need my violin bow restrung.

ebay is a great thing!!! you can find all kinds of great deals. i was going to sell my old stand up bass on ebay for 700, but then i donated it to our local middle school, because it was a half sized bass, i was very small kid for awhile, and they had some really short kids, but couldn't afford to get basses to accomidate their size, so they were all playing basses that were far too large. plus, my parents ended up getting to use it as a tax write off, so it was ok.

we need to make an eskimo band with all of our crazy talents put together!

Bumpman · 08-03-2006, 08:52 PM

I'm vehemently opposed to uploading my own music on the internet, I've always felt that it kind of devalues it or something, for the sake of some yob from stourbridge saying "you guys own", it's just not worth throwing yourself into that whole myspace/bebo thing. I'm sure I'll be proved wrong in the future, I'll hang on to my delusion for a while though

I'm sure we could make an eskimo band though, what with the magic of wav files, email and overdubbing and so forth... I get to record a lot for college too actually, fine art and all that. They love stuff they haven't heard before, and people always need music for film and stuff, that's always the easiest to record because you can just build on the same idea for ten minutes and have it go nowhere, and it still works.

I've heard that carbon bows are quite good, I guess they'd be unbreakable and still light, have you guys ever played with one?

carvinC980t_kid · 08-04-2006, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bumpman

I'm vehemently opposed to uploading my own music on the internet, I've always felt that it kind of devalues it or something, for the sake of some yob from stourbridge saying "you guys own", it's just not worth throwing yourself into that whole myspace/bebo thing. I'm sure I'll be proved wrong in the future, I'll hang on to my delusion for a while though

I'm sure we could make an eskimo band though, what with the magic of wav files, email and overdubbing and so forth... I get to record a lot for college too actually, fine art and all that. They love stuff they haven't heard before, and people always need music for film and stuff, that's always the easiest to record because you can just build on the same idea for ten minutes and have it go nowhere, and it still works.

I've heard that carbon bows are quite good, I guess they'd be unbreakable and still light, have you guys ever played with one?

hell, the postal sevice made band without recording together or working together... the just mailed it to eachother.

Closing_Doors · 08-04-2006, 08:50 PM

It's funny actually, my band mates have been scattered all over the globe this summer (from New York to Thailand) so we've had to bounce stuff back and forth over the net. It's not the same as them actually being here but it's better than nothing

Bumpman · 08-04-2006, 10:30 PM

Yeah, I could imagine it being like sex by post.

WhatAmIDarling? · 08-21-2006, 10:37 PM

I think that knowing how to play the violin helps when learning how to play virtually any other instrument. But I'd just dive right in.

I played the cello for about 3 weeks.

Timeé · 08-21-2006, 10:38 PM

did you own one??
are they expensive?

WhatAmIDarling? · 08-21-2006, 10:42 PM

Nope, it was loaned to me via the public school system. I was learning to play to help out a youth orchestra (they didn't have a cellist).

But I imagine they're fairly expensive. Find a music store and see for yourself.

Timeé · 08-21-2006, 10:45 PM

feckin free for all in U.S.

bastards in Ireland.
our system is so crap. and argh we have class musicians.

AAAAAAAAAGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

08-01-2006, 07:43 PM	#1
Timeé Intello Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Co. Donegal, Ireland. Posts: 2,435	Introduction to Cello?? please help I am interested in playing cello. I play guitar and piano and am wondering would i be best off learning violin first and then move on??? and also how much money roughly are you talking to spend for a decent cello? __________________ Wasted and wounded, it ain't what the moon did Got what I paid for now See ya tomorrow, hey Frank can I borrow A couple of bucks from you?

08-01-2006, 08:53 PM	#2
Bumpman ... Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 2,801	Decent how? You could spend €50,000 on what some people might call decent. I'd say go shopping with $700 for a student cello, make sure it's full sized (4/4 size). Don't bother with the violin, just get the cello and start playing. Don't buy a cello from the more conventional shops either. Here's a good place to start looking. I actually encountered the same cello dilemma about eight months ago, the advice I was given from on high, was to try all the music school noticeboards (The College of Music on Chatham Row, The Academy of Music on Westland Row and Walton's School of Music on George's St). Private sales might not be a bad idea. __________________ Mic Christopher Is Great

08-01-2006, 09:45 PM	#4
Timeé Intello Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Co. Donegal, Ireland. Posts: 2,435	decent as in cheap something to add more sound. starting off kinda one. hmmm maybe i should wait 700 sounds teenily steep __________________ Wasted and wounded, it ain't what the moon did Got what I paid for now See ya tomorrow, hey Frank can I borrow A couple of bucks from you?

08-01-2006, 10:05 PM	#5
Beevers_uk Esquimal Conducido Pasión Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: In My Sugar Coated World, Filled With Angels And Love And Happiness And... And You. Posts: 4,421	I sued to play when i was in primary school, played for about 5 years! __________________ ...~Gemma Hayes~... - Just To See How Hard, You Can Make Me Cry - ...~Duke Special~... - Im Not Who You Think I am, I Slipped A Stranger Inside - ...~Noelie Mcdonnell~... - You'll Be My Muse, And I'll Be Your Poet - ...~My Myspace Thingy~...

08-02-2006, 01:39 AM	#6
Bumpman ... Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 2,801	I'd sue a primary school if I could too That's why I was advised to check the music schools Timmy, because there are people who buy them for €700, then become very good. Save all their pennies, and splash out two grand. They then sell the first one for half the price... You only have to wait if you're not planning on using that thing between your ears. Mr Green, as the stock market stands, €700 is £478. Timmy, if you're just looking for something to add sound there's no reason to wait, buy an old trumpet from an antiques shop and use that, or get a viola and string it with electric guitar strings, It worked for John Cale. That is if you're just looking to create an interesting sound... As far as 99% of bands today are concerned, an "interesting sound" is a six note bass solo. It doesn't take much to be creative with music, the startling thing is that most people are quite comfortable to sit around doing what everyone has done before, but with worse lyrics. Just do something you haven't already seen. Cello can be fantastic though, despite how it looks it's relatively easy to get a good sound out of. It works really well with other instruments, especially since you don't have frets to worry about, everything just gets itself into key. __________________ Mic Christopher Is Great

08-01-2006, 09:44 PM	#3
Greenmeanie green and mean Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 151	wow I've wanted to learn cello too for absolutely ages, I recon this is a sign... 700 euros tho - man thats about 600 pounds isn't it. Hm.

08-02-2006, 08:18 AM	#7
Greenmeanie green and mean Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 151	Just for the record, it's ms. Thanks for your music school idea tho, I'll be having a shop around too.

08-02-2006, 12:23 PM	#8
Bumpman ... Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 2,801	No problem sir. __________________ Mic Christopher Is Great

08-02-2006, 11:06 PM	#9
carvinC980t_kid Eskimo Regular Join Date: May 2006 Location: noblesville indiana, aka people with too much money producing ignorant children Posts: 2,662	yeah, a 700dollar, i know euros are different from dollars, cell is a very cheap cello. i own an inespensive cello that cost $1200. i just got rid of my last stand up bass and bought a new one about half a year ago and it is only an ok one and it cost me $4300. it's older, but i bought it in near perfect condition for being used. my buddy has a nice double bass that cost him $6500 and it is in horrible condition, but it sounds amazing. but to most professional musicians a $10,000 stringed instrument is a cheap one. really nice classical guitars start around $30,000 and can reach over $100,000. which is just insane. don't bother learning another stringed instrument first. if you DO want to learn something besides cello don't learn violin... learn the viola. it, like the cello, has a C string. the violin and cello have different strings. cello strings starting from the lowest string is C, G, D, A. a violin is from lowest to highest G, D, A, E. a bass from lowest to highest is E, A, D, G. a viola is like the cello C, G, D, A. cello is prolly one of the easiest stringed instruments to learn. It is the easiest to lear vibrato on and it isn't nearly as hard to learn to bow properly such as a violin or viola. bass is complicated, because you have to learn to play with your elbow up and stretch farther while being accurate. also you have to adjust your body movement alot to goto the low E string on bass. i'd say get about 700 together and go find a nice starter cello. get some how-to books on it and you'll be set. also, if you buy from a shop then have them teach you the correct technique on how to use the tuning pegs on Cello's, because it is VERY VERY easy to break strings and bridges on cello's. they can show you how to do that properly and you could prolly get them to tune it perfectly and then put tape markings on which will show you the correct spots to put your fingers when learning and if you keep it in tune everytime you play they will basically be in the correct spots all of the time. good luck man! __________________ "And live for the moment, Lord knows I'm gon' die And when I get to hell, Lord knows I'm gon' fry" young jeezy - i luv it

08-02-2006, 11:43 PM	#11
Bumpman ... Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 2,801	I meant that in terms of wanting to add an interesting sound to something that already exists, what with the strings at a low C and G and all that, in the beginning stages of playing you could concieveably play a cello part that sounded somewhat substantial but required very little effort. __________________ Mic Christopher Is Great

08-03-2006, 02:49 AM	#13
Bumpman ... Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 2,801	If by orchestra you mean a four-piece experimental noise ensemble, then yes, yes I do. I play guitar, piano, cello, bass, drums, harmonica, synth, djembe, I do a lot of sampling, I play a few instruments that I don't even know the names of and I play the spoons... yeah that's right, I play the spoons. And what's more, I'm barely even embarrassed. __________________ Mic Christopher Is Great

08-03-2006, 03:56 PM	#14
carvinC980t_kid Eskimo Regular Join Date: May 2006 Location: noblesville indiana, aka people with too much money producing ignorant children Posts: 2,662	that is awesome bumpman!!! right now i'm in a jam band where we are running alot of weird synth effects on our recordings and alot of weird guitar effects live. it's pretty crazy. we just like to screw around cause my friend has a nice PA and some dec. recording equipment. i play guitar, electric bass, stand up bass, violin, cello, harmonica, piano, lap-steel, drums, classical guitar (a whole different world of music!), and then i play some minor keyboard work, then i do alot of sampling and electronic beats on a korg sampler/drum machine. my brother just got a new djembe cause his old one got stolen, so i like to play around on that too. but i love running a lap steel into an effects processor... it sounds so fcked up! lol oh yeah, and i can barely play the flute! its fun, but i don't have any really serious band going. i'd love to have a band where i just fcking rock out on my guitar playing sweet jams, badd a** solos, and use trippy sound effects. mad props for the spoons though!! a kid at my school played the song "spoon man" for a guitar concert at school a few years ago and he completely sucked it up while playing the spoons. any samples or recordings of your little band you got going? i'd love to hear another fellow eskimos work who seems to be going the same musical direction as me! __________________ "And live for the moment, Lord knows I'm gon' die And when I get to hell, Lord knows I'm gon' fry" young jeezy - i luv it

08-03-2006, 04:29 PM	#15
cello_pudding Eskimo Regular Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 185	i own a 1250 dollar cello. but i got it used from ebay. 260 + 30 shipping= 300. now that's a CHEAP cello. its sounds decent with good strings on it. the bow and your fingers are where a good portion of the tone will come from. i had to really dig through a lot of lame cellos on ebay to find a decent one though. go for it for sure though. not enough string players in the world. if you want to get something cheap...get a viola. i love it's size and its range and NO ONE plays viola. i like cello a lot more, but if you want to be different and play a string, viola is a cool option too.

08-03-2006, 07:10 PM	#17
carvinC980t_kid Eskimo Regular Join Date: May 2006 Location: noblesville indiana, aka people with too much money producing ignorant children Posts: 2,662	Cell_pudding yeah, i agree. on my cello i found the tone to be sub par but not too bad, but when i sold my bow and bought a new one that cost me 400bucks it just made the tone sound so much better! it also uses black hair on it, which looks cool too! i need a new cello bow though, because i traded mine old one in and then replaced it with a new one that i make payments on, because this way if any damage occurs they'll fix it for free instead of me straight up owning it right away and now since the weather got all crazy the bow doesn't tighten up enough anymore, so i have to have it fixed. i also need my violin bow restrung. ebay is a great thing!!! you can find all kinds of great deals. i was going to sell my old stand up bass on ebay for 700, but then i donated it to our local middle school, because it was a half sized bass, i was very small kid for awhile, and they had some really short kids, but couldn't afford to get basses to accomidate their size, so they were all playing basses that were far too large. plus, my parents ended up getting to use it as a tax write off, so it was ok. we need to make an eskimo band with all of our crazy talents put together! __________________ "And live for the moment, Lord knows I'm gon' die And when I get to hell, Lord knows I'm gon' fry" young jeezy - i luv it

08-03-2006, 08:52 PM	#18
Bumpman ... Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 2,801	I'm vehemently opposed to uploading my own music on the internet, I've always felt that it kind of devalues it or something, for the sake of some yob from stourbridge saying "you guys own", it's just not worth throwing yourself into that whole myspace/bebo thing. I'm sure I'll be proved wrong in the future, I'll hang on to my delusion for a while though I'm sure we could make an eskimo band though, what with the magic of wav files, email and overdubbing and so forth... I get to record a lot for college too actually, fine art and all that. They love stuff they haven't heard before, and people always need music for film and stuff, that's always the easiest to record because you can just build on the same idea for ten minutes and have it go nowhere, and it still works. I've heard that carbon bows are quite good, I guess they'd be unbreakable and still light, have you guys ever played with one? __________________ Mic Christopher Is Great

08-04-2006, 08:50 PM	#20
Closing_Doors Hysterical & Useless Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,329	It's funny actually, my band mates have been scattered all over the globe this summer (from New York to Thailand) so we've had to bounce stuff back and forth over the net. It's not the same as them actually being here but it's better than nothing __________________ Come clean, come good, repeat with me the punch line 'Just like blood' when those at the back rush forward to say how a little love goes a long long long way. -- Simon Armitage

08-04-2006, 10:30 PM	#21
Bumpman ... Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 2,801	Yeah, I could imagine it being like sex by post. __________________ Mic Christopher Is Great

08-21-2006, 10:37 PM	#22
WhatAmIDarling? Eskimo Regular Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: North Carolina, USA Posts: 448	I think that knowing how to play the violin helps when learning how to play virtually any other instrument. But I'd just dive right in. I played the cello for about 3 weeks. __________________ They are so happy they don't know how miserable they are.

08-21-2006, 10:38 PM	#23
Timeé Intello Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Co. Donegal, Ireland. Posts: 2,435	did you own one?? are they expensive? __________________ Wasted and wounded, it ain't what the moon did Got what I paid for now See ya tomorrow, hey Frank can I borrow A couple of bucks from you?

08-21-2006, 10:42 PM	#24
WhatAmIDarling? Eskimo Regular Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: North Carolina, USA Posts: 448	Nope, it was loaned to me via the public school system. I was learning to play to help out a youth orchestra (they didn't have a cellist). But I imagine they're fairly expensive. Find a music store and see for yourself. __________________ They are so happy they don't know how miserable they are.

08-21-2006, 10:45 PM	#25
Timeé Intello Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Co. Donegal, Ireland. Posts: 2,435	feckin free for all in U.S. bastards in Ireland. our system is so crap. and argh we have class musicians. AAAAAAAAAGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH __________________ Wasted and wounded, it ain't what the moon did Got what I paid for now See ya tomorrow, hey Frank can I borrow A couple of bucks from you?