Damien and Music Theory

[mattmatt]

Hey musicians....

I'm studying the guitar, and I'm wondering if you could tell me what keys and scales Damien generally uses. None of the tabs ever list it.

Thanks

- Matt

[Closing_Doors]

Well it's not like he writes all his songs in the same key....and I would've thought the reason the key isn't listed in tabs is because it's self evident from the chords?

If you want to ask about an individual song I could tell you what key it's in, but there's too many to go through individually.

[brb8y215]

Hey,
I dont think he uses anything other than standard tuning, rather i havent seen anything where the chords are in drop d tuning.

[Oisin]

He uses drop D in " the girl who does yoga" and i've heard of him droping it for some covers too, Black is the colour and stuff.

[Juzzza]

He tends to keep regular tuning and plays your standard open chords and bar chords... moving the Capo around to achive different keys.

[theiny]

cheers darlin' is in A.
the blowers daughter i think is in E.
Cannonball is in C#. (capo at 6th fret)
delicate is in A#. (capo at 5th fret)

dunno about others.please tell me if im wrong.

[walker]

i thought Cheers Darlin was in A minor??? oh well

[Closing_Doors]

Originally Posted by walker

i thought Cheers Darlin was in A minor??? oh well

It is

Also Delicate is in F, not B flat.

[theiny]

oh yeah i didnt write in the minors etc.sorry!

and yeah you're right about delicate, i dunno where i got that from. i think the tuning just confused me, cos i always play in D. cheers guys.

[cello_pudding]

"Also Delicate is in F, not B flat."


both not right.

he capos the 5th fret, plays an Fmaj7 shape, and is a Bbmaj7, but, in major keys there is no II, or this song, C major (the G chord shape). if it were in Bb there would be an Eb, making that a Cminor. This song is modal.

The key signature indeed would be F, but it is in Bb Lydian.

haha...just trying to stick it to you...i always have to be difficult with people

[Closing_Doors]

Originally Posted by cello_pudding

The key signature indeed would be F

Like I said

I don't get where you're coming from with the second
The second in F major is G, not C!? C is the fifth.

[denounced]

hmm i don't really see what you're getting at with the modal approach in this particular song...what is the difference in a piece being written in F ionian or Bb lydian (except, of course, the modal centre being F or Bb)..you don't get any different chords when you harmonize F ionian and Bb lydian as they consist of the same notes - of course i am not talking functional harmony here...

anyways, i think that Delicate is in plain F major - there is Bbmaj 7 (IV. in F maj - subdominant) there is plain F maj (I. tonic) and an there is plain C maj (dominant) - maybe a bit altered, but still everything that's sounding is part of F maj...

[cello_pudding]

Bb's ii is a C minor chord. but this song you play a C major chord. it can't be Bb, though the song starts with the Bb and the chorus starts with the Bb. the melodies are built along that, and chord progression is not typical.

so thinking it is Bb seems correct. But the chords that are being played are typical F major chords, but because of the melody and order of them, it should be thought of as modal. but the song, i believe, does end on the F. i think that's just because that's how our ears want it to end, so he does.

[denounced]

Originally Posted by cello_pudding

Bb's ii is a C minor chord. but this song you play a C major chord. it can't be Bb, though the song starts with the Bb and the chorus starts with the Bb. the melodies are built along that, and chord progression is not typical.

so thinking it is Bb seems correct. But the chords that are being played are typical F major chords, but because of the melody and order of them, it should be thought of as modal. but the song, i believe, does end on the F. i think that's just because that's how our ears want it to end, so he does.

yeah i think we can agree that the song is not it Bb major..i suppose you are correct, but i don't think that if a piece is written in F maj, it has to start and end with F major chord..yeah, it's a common practice but not an unbreakable rule..

[jmc105]

sorry to disagree with everyone (!) but i think that, ignoring the capo, delicate is in c major. it does start with f major (again ignoring the capo), it definately ends with a c major chord. g major is in there too. it's basically a whole load plagal cadences!

[Closing_Doors]

Originally Posted by jmc105

but i think that, ignoring the capo, delicate is in c major.

You can't just ignore the capo

[theiny]

Originally Posted by Closing_Doors

You can't just ignore the capo

Thats what i was thinking. Not meaning to sound disrespectful but the capo makes every difference and would just change everything, making this debate pointless.

[gomezxico]

Originally Posted by theiny

Thats what i was thinking. Not meaning to sound disrespectful but the capo makes every difference and would just change everything, making this debate pointless.

What you said...

[jmc105]

of course the capo changes things, that's what it's for! i was just trying to show that, from the point of view of the chord shapes involved, this song is pretty straightforward, using the basic chord shapes of C, F and G major, which in this case correspond to chords I, IV, and V. the tonal centre is based around the C chord shape. so, as far as the left hand of the guitar-player is concerned, the song is in C major - the capo takes care of the transposition. if it is placed at the fifth fret, as in the album version, we have 'deliacate' in F major - although i have a live version which has the capo at the 4th fret (g sharp major); maybe damo was worried about hitting those high notes!

for someone studying the guitar, which is what matt said, i think it's useful sometimes not to worry so much about what key the song is in, as this will not always lead you to the best way to learn or play the song. sometimes it's better to think in terms of chord shapes. for example, if you just try to play 'delicate' in Bb major but without the capo, you won't be able to achieve the same hammer-on effects that damo uses, but it's quite easy to do when using the basic C, F and G chord shapes.

hope i've expressed myself a little clearer this time...!

[Closing_Doors]

Originally Posted by jmc105

, if you just try to play 'delicate' in Bb major but without the capo, you won't be able to achieve the same hammer-on effects that damo uses,

Why not!? I've tried it....it's quite easy

[jmc105]

Originally Posted by Closing_Doors

Why not!? I've tried it....it's quite easy

not as easy as using the capo - and since the shapes of the chords are different, the hammer-on effects can't be the same... similar, but not the same. especially damo's habit of letting the open g-string ring out when he changes from one chord to another, dropping his 2nd finger down a beat or two late. can't do that (with the b-string) moving from G to Bb. not that that actually matters.

by the way, fixed my earlier post - it's in f, not Bb... don't know what i was thinking!

[SisterMidnight]

ah i'd go with what jmc105 is saying (i knew what you meant about the capo btw) i've heard his cover of delicate on the mp3 page and it sounds pretty right on to me... plus he's a trained music teacher

john!! haven't seen you in ages how ya been hun?!

[theiny]

Originally Posted by jmc105

by the way, fixed my earlier post - it's in f, not Bb... don't know what i was thinking!

i was about to say something about that. but after reading your posts, i'll trust your judgements on everything from now haha

[jmc105]

Originally Posted by SisterMidnight

ah i'd go with what jmc105 is saying (i knew what you meant about the capo btw) i've heard his cover of delicate on the mp3 page and it sounds pretty right on to me... plus he's a trained music teacher

john!! haven't seen you in ages how ya been hun?!

hey m!

i'm really well - how're you? back home now (it's raining!) and really enjoying the summer (despite the weather...) life is good!

[SisterMidnight]

Originally Posted by jmc105

hey m!

i'm really well - how're you? back home now (it's raining!) and really enjoying the summer (despite the weather...) life is good!

i'm good j thanks for asking. glad to hear you're doing so well and having such a good summer! i'll bet it's nice to be back home but i fear it's a loss for america

i lost my buddy list when my computer crashed sometime back but i'll try to add you again on msn and maybe we can chat sometime and catch up good to see you around the place

btw would you have tabbed eskimo by any chance? i'm trying to learn it and i can't find a decent version that sounds right...

[jmc105]

have to get msn for my shiny new mac (which i love more than a man should love a machine...) - would love to chat!

eskimo - found a really good tab of it somewhere, i'll try to reproduce it for ya...

capo 5. (gonna count all frets taking the capo as zero)

so we've got 3 different parts to the song. there's loads of hammering on happening, always going from the open string to different notes - damo uses his thumb, strumming up when the string is open (on the upbeat), and down when he hammers on (on thhe downbeat) - which makes much more sense when you hear it!

1st part:

E ---0------------0-----------0-----------0
B ---0------------0-----------0-----------0
G ---0------------0-----------0-----------0
D ---0/5-(x3)---0/4-(x3)---0/2-(x5)---0/4-(x1)
A ---7------------5-----------3-----------5
E ---0------------0-----------0-----------0

2nd part (harder now, with higher speed...)

E ---0------------0 --------5
B --0/1-(x6)----0/3-(x3)--3
G ---0------------0---------0
D ---2------------4---------4
A ---0------------0---------0
E ---x------------x---------x

after the last chord of the second part above, and just before repeating the whole thing, i play something like

E --5-3-0
B --3-----
G --0-----
D --4-----
A --0-----
E --x-----

or i think at one stage damo plays

E --x-----
B --5-3-0
G --0----
D --4----
A --0----
E --x----

whatever you like yourself!

anyway, last part (so i look to my eskimo friend...) (and also the finnish bit)

E --3---3---3---3---------3
B --3---3---3---3---------3
G --0---0---0---0---------0
D --0---0---0-------0/2---0
A --2---0---2--2/3--------3
E --3---2---0---0----------x

hope that's useful - the hammering on is hard to explain, but really not that hard to do when you know what it sounds like.

anyway, gonna go and have a really late breakfast (i'm being lazy today...)

hope you're well,

talk soon,

j.

[SisterMidnight]

hey now thats a good tab! thanks j man i just tried a bit of that and it sounds perfect i'm going to copy it off and try it more later. i also watched a friend playing it last night so i picked up the pull-off on the first chord on the high E string (thanks for showing me you know who) i love that little bit it sounds like a bell ringing or something but i don't think he did it in the original recording on O... i'm so glad damien only plays in standard and drop D tuning it's the only kind i know

a mac man eh? wellll.... we won't hold that against you

hope you enjoyed your lazy day, talk to you soon