Our homophobic new pope - "gays are morally evil"

[WhatAmIDarling?]

I love threads like this, because I love hearing different opinions.

Technically speaking I am Catholic, but I have to admit I don't know all that much about "my faith" because I don't care/consider it to be my faith. I have a much more earthy, individual, spiritual, Mother Nature view of 'God'.

I DO NOT agree with people who believe it to be a sin to be gay. I think it's ridiculous. If you are religious enough that you believe God created everyone, then you should know that God also created gays and doesn't love them any less than you. BUT, I UNDERSTAND where their ("their" being people who are homophobic) coming from, and can accept it as their point of view. Even if I don't like it.

I think people are too quick to judge the entire Catholic religion based simply on things that the pope says/does. "Offcially" the church may do things that are one-sided and close-minded, but UNofficially the Catholic church/religion is much more liberal (and no, liberal is not a bad thing!!!) than people give it credit for.

My Dad is Italian/Roman Catholic. He grew up in an Italian town nearby to New York City, attended a Catholic school (nuns and all), and church every Sunday. One of the things that has always pissed me off about the Catholic faith is their seemingly lack of respect for women (I've always pictured God a woman, thank you very much ). BUT, according to dear old Dad, every other Sunday his priest would allow a nun to stand up and participate in parts of mass that are "officially" off-limits to women. He said at the end of every year his priest would stand up and read quite long list of the "rules" their church had broken. His point at the end of reading the list was that "The people are not meant to serve the church--the church is meant to serve the people".

When I randomly (and admittedly, rarely) attend church/youth group, I am always surprised at the fact that NO ONE is trying to tell me what to believe, think, or do. When I was eleven I went to Catholic sex ed class and NOT ONCE did they tell us it was wrong to have sex before marriage. They simply gave us the biological facts and that was that. No moral preaching. I greatly appreciated it. Not only that, but I know LOTS of strong Catholics who support gay rights and abortion.

Anywho, to wrap my opinion up: It is not a sin to be gay, people should be able to believe whatever they want to believe, and the Catholic church is not all that bad ;-)

[gregamiepgy]

Originally Posted by WhatAmIDarling?

I DO NOT agree with people who believe it to be a sin to be gay. I think it's ridiculous. If you are religious enough that you believe God created everyone, then you should know that God also created gays and doesn't love them any less than you. BUT, I UNDERSTAND where their ("their" being people who are homophobic) coming from, and can accept it as their point of view. Even if I don't like it.

i think what the traditional Christianity finds sinful is the sexual act between two people of the same biological sex, and the act, according to the traditional Christianity (i can't stress this enough), is not of God's creation, but of the people who perform it. but if i may infer, your point is actually that gay people are created by God, meaning that homosexuality (not the act, but the condition) is biological, in which case you may find this article interesting:

Biological link found in homosexuality





WASHINGTON: The brains of homosexual men respond more like those of women when reacting to a chemical derived from the male sex hormone, new evidence of physical differences related to sexual orientation.

The finding, published in yesterday's issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, shows differences in physiological reaction to sex hormones.

Researchers led by Ivanka Savic at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden, exposed heterosexual men and women and homosexual men to chemicals derived from male and female sex hormones.

These chemicals are thought to be pheromones, molecules known to trigger responses such as defence and sex in many animals.

Whether humans respond to pheromones has been the subject of debate, although in 2000 American researchers reported finding a gene that they believe directs the human pheromone receptor in the nose.

In the Swedish study, when sniffing a chemical from testosterone, the male hormone, portions of the brains involved in sexual activity were activated in gay men and straight women, but not in straight men, the researchers found. The result clearly shows a biological involvement in sexual orientation, said Sandra Witelson, an expert on brain anatomy and sexual orientation at the Michael G. DeGroote School of Medicine at McMaster University in Ontario, Canada. – AP

[WhatAmIDarling?]

Originally Posted by gregamiepgy

i think what the traditional Christianity finds sinful is the sexual act between two people of the same biological sex, and the act, according to the traditional Christianity (i can't stress this enough), is not of God's creation, but of the people who perform it.

Good point. BUT...(isn't there always a but?)

If indeed it is the ACT of sex between two members of the same gender that Christians find to be a sin, than that is the same thing as finding gays to be sinners because TECHNICALLY speaking, that is what it means to be "gay": sexually attracted to members of the same sex, meaning, you prefer to have sex with someone of your gender, and so you do. Basically what I'm saying is finding sex between two men to be a sin is the SAME THING as finding being gay to be a sin, because that's what being gay is (and I'm not talking about person-wise "what-being-gay-is", you know what I mean).

And some other thoughts:

What it all boils down to is the obvious: sex. I think that YOUR sex life is YOUR business, and anyone who butts into it without any right to do so, is disrespecting you. How the heck is a gay couple doing any harm to a Christian church?? Sure, the bible preaches against it, but I don't believe that any one person (let alone millions or billions of people) should be governed and taught what is right and what is wrong by a book that is literally translation after translation of stories that can be interpreted in SEVERAL different ways. Of course, just because that is what I think doesn't mean that that's the only way to think, because I am not the decider of such things--but neither is any religion.

I think one of the reasons homophobia exists is because people are often afraid or apalled by things that they do not understand. As my female mormon friend put it: "Liking another woman? I mean, it's just like, WHAT?"
It's hard for a straight guy to understand how a gay guy could possibly like other dudes, or NOT like women. So, some straight guys feels since it doesn't make any logical sense to them, it must "not be right". I think people should be more open-minded than that. Just because I don't understand how ANYONE could prefer living in a big city full of too many people, loud noises, trash, and smoke to a lovely country town with woods, streams, and fields, doesn't mean that they are wrong for preferring cities. It simply means that they are different from me. The fact that EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT has been burned into our minds since pre school. Four-year-olds understand this concept better than some grown men and women.

[WhatAmIDarling?]

Oh and I did like the article, thanks :-)

[WhatAmIDarling?]

Originally Posted by jasonAVO

heres a news flash....
you arent catholic.

i was raised christian. i do not believe in what was taught to me. i can no longer(nor have a desire) to call myself a christian. i find it very strange that so many people label themselves as a part of something they admit openly they do not believe.

i dont mean to come across as ....eh whatever it is i will be....there is no shame in not believing in what was shoved down your throat. feel pride not shame. thats the church still talking. shame. f=ck that. you and so many others i know personally sound as if they just cant come right out and say no im not a catholic. i dont believe jc died for my sins or was gods son. can i really say im a christian just because i was rasied christian? second question: why would i want to?

jason

technically i am a dave matthews band fan. though i dont pay any attention to them whatso ever anymore because i dont care about them anymore. my musical tastes have changed and i no longer find any pleasure in listening to dmb. havent listened to them in yrs.
hmm....maybe im not a fan?

Yea, ur right. I do not consider myself to be Catholic, but I've never flat out said it. I guess I'd feel a little guilty (The previously mentioned Daddy really wants me to get confirmed and, hey, it won't kill me). Plus, since I live in Hick-country, "What religion are you?" is just as typically asked as "How old are you?". If I answer "Nothing", you get the "OH" (meaning, "You're going to Hell, you Heathen"). Not that i should care or anything, but I'd prefer if the Southern Baptists I have to work with this summer didn't think I was an evil, Bible-burner. Not that they all would or anything, but it's highly possible.
I don't believe that jc was Gods son either.

[eskimo_friendly]

Originally Posted by cello_pudding

...my own little world? i'm making people angry?

i don't know if you know this...but there are opposing views in our world. not everyone is going to conform to your little world that you seem to want to push on the rest..and it wants to push its own on you.

you're just going have to deal with the way christianity doesn't find homosexuality morally right.

but really...why would you ask a church leader and make an article on homosexuality? they knew EVERY answer he was going to say. they just wanted him to say it. i don't know what language he said the sentence in...but if it was english..those are probably the closest he can get to what he wanted to say. if you feel it has a negative connotation and want to form your own opinions that the pope thinks gays are hateful and every catholic/protestant/religious person thinks the exact same thing, then start learning to notice that you are wrong.

i don't know if you know this..but most christians read whats called a bible..and in it, it defines moral behaviour. so call me crazy...but they tend to keep that same moral behaviour despite what the culture is telling them.

in biblical times there were parties where people would eat so much and puke and eat more. in that culture, they saw that as okay. (not the christian/jewish culture though)

today we see that as bulemia and overindulgance as a bad thing. it is physically harming and people that do have a mental block in them that tells them they need to be skinny. because it's physically harming, our culture sees it as not a good thing. yet many many people do it. they eventually get help, but they still think they are fat. because homosexuality is not physically harming, our culture doesn't see it as something morally wrong. now, the christian church realizes change in culture and won't adhere to it, thus creating disagreements like this thread.

obviously the pope is going to call alcoholics, drug users, porn stars, killers, liars, thieves....he is going to say all of those are morally wrong lifestyles. (morally evil if you will)

this article pinpoints ONE lifestyle that the christian church disagrees with (for the most part, i know you can find someone that accepts it...but i'm saying for the majority)

they talked about it because its contravercial with these different cultures that live in this one world. i don't really know if the pope is hateful towards gays, nor do i care, everyone is going to have their own "religion" and you're just going to have to face that.

First of all you said that the article was exaggerating and probably incorrect.
Then you backtracked and admitted it was right and that we should just accept it.

You don't really seem to know what to think!

[gregamiepgy]

Originally Posted by WhatAmIDarling?

Good point. BUT...(isn't there always a but?)

If indeed it is the ACT of sex between two members of the same gender that Christians find to be a sin, than that is the same thing as finding gays to be sinners because TECHNICALLY speaking, that is what it means to be "gay": sexually attracted to members of the same sex, meaning, you prefer to have sex with someone of your gender, and so you do. Basically what I'm saying is finding sex between two men to be a sin is the SAME THING as finding being gay to be a sin, because that's what being gay is (and I'm not talking about person-wise "what-being-gay-is", you know what I mean).

what i was trying to say is, that in the Bible there's no mention of it being sinful to be gay, only the sexual performance between two persons of the same biological sex is. one can be gay and not have sex (celibate relationship, just like what one Catholic pastor did i remember reading); therefore he is not "sinful". of course mankind is one sinful lot after the Fall, but i think where homosexuality is concerned, it's not about the being that is sinful (since all men and women are) but the act that is.

just as you said, i find it disheartening that people choose to view others through a smokescreen of their own prejudices, and their "argument" for their stand which is supposed to be rational, is merely a re-arrangement of their prejudices in different words. no one seeks to understand, and the issue is, to be frank, beyond mortal understanding! there are so many factors to be considered like upbringing, genes (i can't refute that; what makes me think it's not a possible factor?), environment, etc. and like you said, everybody is different; there are so many different combinations for different people!! what i'm trying to say is i think to continue waging war over the issue and slighting certain groups for their "deviances" in the name of one religion is futile. i mean, misinterpretations of the Holy text had brought about a lot of misunderstandings throughout the ages; to think that being left-handed used to signify you are the son of a devil! and the like.

christianity started out as a religion which embraces all mankind; preachers do not preach to the righteous, but to sinners to come to repentance. anyone has watched Chocolat? pere henri's Easter sermon in one of the final scenes comes to mind:

“I want to talk about Christ’s humanity, I mean how he lived his life on earth: his kindness, his tolerance. We must measure our goodness, not by what we don’t do, what we deny ourselves, what we resist, or who we exclude. Instead, we should measure ourselves by what we embrace, what we create, and who we include.”

[WhatAmIDarling?]

"what i was trying to say is, that in the Bible there's no mention of it being sinful to be gay, only the sexual performance between two persons of the same biological sex is. one can be gay and not have sex (celibate relationship, just like what one Catholic pastor did i remember reading); therefore he is not "sinful". of course mankind is one sinful lot after the Fall, but i think where homosexuality is concerned, it's not about the being that is sinful (since all men and women are) but the act that is."



So that means that gay VIRGINS are not sinners, but all other gays are?

But to be real here, I seriously doubt any gays will NEVER have sex. It doesn't make sense to say, "Well as long as you're still a virgin--I don't think you're a sinner!", because that's saying that sex is a sin, which it isn't. I don't care what gender the person is you're having sex with, sex is sex.

I understand what you're saying, and I know that the bible only mentions the ACT being sinful (mentioned by, who was it again? A saint? Not God, that's for sure. Isn't part of having a strong faith serving God? God didn't write the bible), but I read that as saying being gay is sinful--and that is how I'd say ALOT of people (Christians) see it as well.

My Christian friend was explaining to me that she too doesn't think being GAY is sinful, but she thinks having sex before marriage is, and since gays cannot be legally married in the US, if they're in a relationship where they're having sex, that's a sin.

Which made me think, "Will then give them the friggin' right to get married, and no one will have a problem!"

Besides, I think finding the act of sex between two people of the same gender to be sinful is just as bad if finding gays to be sinners (which, though I can see how easily you can support your opinion, I still think is the same thing).

[Ranting Thespian]

I'm just saying this. I'm bi-sexual, and it's my life, and it's not a sin to me. I do more good deeds than a lot of people out there (not putting down people on the boards, though. I think higher of you guys. Even though I've been here for a short time, I like you guys a lot already). So if jesus was the savior, he would love me no matter what my sexuality is, because my goals in life is to become a professoinal musician, and try to help preserve peace in the world (seriously, I want to) as well as I do as much as I can during every day, helping people, and respecting people, and triyng to make the world a better place. So I don't care what some religous leader is or says, I know myself, and I don't need someone to tell me what to believe. I'll believe in me, and the power of love and peace. All I have to say to the pope is, and to any other leader that tells me what to do, "I hope someday, you will join us, and the world will be as one." - John Ono Lennon, 1971.

[WhatAmIDarling?]

[snowbaby]

Originally Posted by WhatAmIDarling?

So that means that gay VIRGINS are not sinners, but all other gays are?

well ya. my religion teacher who's a priest told us that the first ppl to create outreach programmes for "confused" young ppl were involved in the catholic church. NOTHING'S PERFECT LADS

[WhatAmIDarling?]

Originally Posted by jasonAVO

well, you do what you think is best for you. personally , i will never feel shame for not believing what others do nor feel afraid to say i differ with those beliefs. i spent most of my life feeling that way...never again. they proudly wear a cross around their neck , why should i feel differently for removing mine?

but dont you feel a little.....bad belly feeling when you pretend to be something youre not? its all those little feelings that add up to equal misery. be careful. being honest with myself and being proud of that is how ive come to be truly happy after a lifetime of only acting like i was happy.

jason

whenever you pretend to be something you are not , the 'real' you takes one step closer to death

I don't tell people I'm Catholic, I tell them I'm "Catholic"

Naw I don't feel guilty because I know what I believe and just because I don't give everyone details, I don't feel like I'm not being true to myself. I never tell them "I go to church every Sunday and pray before I eat" I simply say I'm "Catholic" to avoid any lectures because I really hate people telling me what I should and should not do (especially regarding things like religion)--and while I think its important to stand up for what you believe in, I also like to steer away from any un-wanted arguements. Then again, one of these days I just may reply "I think the bible is bull****, and if YOU don't like it--bite me" ;-) Seriously, I might. If I'm extra hormonal that day or something...

I'm home schooled (and whatever stereotype that comes to mind as soon as you read that is WRONG) and since alot of kids are home schooled because there families and ULTRA religious, I really do have to be careful not to offend anyone because of friendships and mutual friendships and blablabla.

I was once having a polite conversation with one of my guy friends about God (and JEZ is he a Southern Baptist) and was amazed at the fact that he TRULY, TRULY believed there was only one way to think, look, and feel about God. I tried explaining in a very cliche way that I looked at God like a modern art painting--if you stood 100 people in front of it and asked them to tell you what they saw, they'd all see something different. He said he got what I was saying, but I was still wrong ("There's only one way to look at the painting!") and then gave me his priests sn. haha

I have a question for anyone who can answer: Who was the person to first tell the story of Adam and Eve? Did God tell someone this story? Where did it come from?

[PenguinBoy]

Originally Posted by WhatAmIDarling?

I have a question for anyone who can answer: Who was the person to first tell the story of Adam and Eve? Did God tell someone this story? Where did it come from?

i'm thinking adam and eve would have found it hard not to tell cain and able that they were built directly by god out of paper-clips and elastic bands. obviously not in english, they were neanderthols. and then at some point when some arab or hebrew learnt how to write, he thought "i better write that one down"

i especially liked jason's forgotten biblical verse, legendry stuff.

i think darling's argument is that because the bible tells us that we should ask for forgiveness in sinful thoughts, "it's the thought that counts"(i know that's not a biblical quote, but never mind), and because is also sais that the action of gay sex is wrong, if you follow the bible, then by being gay which means you have a preference towards gay sex(that's what homosexuality is) you are infact one who prefers sin, and subsiquently, by having this preference, you are sinning.

not that i believe that. . If anyone's seen dogma, that's a beast of a film about christianity, which i can really relate to. And God is hot (allanis morisette)

hum ho hee. How about an "EVEN Newer testement"?

[Xanthe]

I umm-ed and ah-ed about getting involved in this thread, because it seems to be pretty heated in places and I'm not good with conflict! I've been reading it since it started and have found everyone's arguements fascinating, and I want to state for the record that I'm a practising Christian and don't believe that God condemns gay people, like someone (sorry, can't remember who) said, he created them and loves them just the same as the rest of us.

But I want to take issue with something jasonAVO said:

Originally Posted by jasonAVO

god created us. if there is fault in man its not our fault its his. personally i think its the biggest scam in history.

Well, no, if you read Genesis it states very clearly that man made the choice to turn away from God, and it was from that moment that all the fault in man stemmed. God created us as perfect, and the fact that we're imperfect is the fault of man, not God.

[WhatAmIDarling?]

Originally Posted by PenguinBoy

i'm thinking adam and eve would have found it hard not to tell cain and able that they were built directly by god out of paper-clips and elastic bands. obviously not in english, they were neanderthols. and then at some point when some arab or hebrew learnt how to write, he thought "i better write that one down"

i especially liked jason's forgotten biblical verse, legendry stuff.

i think darling's argument is that because the bible tells us that we should ask for forgiveness in sinful thoughts, "it's the thought that counts"(i know that's not a biblical quote, but never mind), and because is also sais that the action of gay sex is wrong, if you follow the bible, then by being gay which means you have a preference towards gay sex(that's what homosexuality is) you are infact one who prefers sin, and subsiquently, by having this preference, you are sinning.

not that i believe that. . If anyone's seen dogma, that's a beast of a film about christianity, which i can really relate to. And God is hot (allanis morisette)

hum ho hee. How about an "EVEN Newer testement"?

Pretty much.

[Xanthe]

Originally Posted by jasonAVO

i i was told that he wanted to leave it up to man ....to give a choice. thats why he allows evil to exist, to give us a choice to follow him or satan(so again, why have the great flood to rid the earth of it only to leave it up to us whether to be good or bad?). of course when you really think about our choice it is this: live by his rules or suffer. it is throughout the bible. israel at a number of points turns away from god. (ignoring the obvious question why did they or would they?) what is gods response? threats.

God does give us the choice, you're right - he wants us to turn to him out of love, not because of 'his rules'. That's why he made man with the potential to turn away with him - we're not 'faulty', it was all part of the original plan. After all, it would be a pretty hollow achievement for God if we only followed him out of fear, because he was some kind of tyranicl dictator.

As for God's threats to Israel, it seems to me that you're looking at a very Old Testament view of a vengeful God. His ultimate response to us turning away from him wasn't threats at all - it Jesus, a pretty good example of love over tyranny if ever I saw one.

[Xanthe]

Originally Posted by jasonAVO

what does that even mean...old testament view?....is it not god depicted in that book? what... people didnt like that version of god so they came out with a new improved version? or is it the same god? feel free to make a comment on the history of god....the murder of countless people at the hands of the great moses and david among others. or is that some antiquated view of god? why is it that so many people pick and choose from the bible? is it true or not? if parts are ok to be disregarded.... which parts and why ?

Sorry, I didn't really explain myself very well! The way I've always looked at the bible is as broader picture, and I think it's really important to take what you read in the context of that. Paul summed it up as being basically about the fall of mankind (the old testament)and our redemption (the new testament). So the God of the old testament shows how he judges us for doing wrong things, and I completley understand where you're coming from, it can seem like he's far from a loving God if you look at parts of the old testament in isolation (that was one of the things I found hardest to understand when becoming a christian.) But the God of the new testament is one of forgiveness, who loves us enough to let us redeem ourselves. It's not that you can disregard parts of the bible, just that some of it doesn't make that much sense by itself.

I really hope that makes some sense, my brain is frazzled by revising literary theory (exam on tues - aaargh... )

And I've just realised we've kind of got off the original topic, sorry!

[Xanthe]

Originally Posted by jasonAVO

well that did explain it a bit more but....well suffice to say neither of us look like we will convert to the others beliefs anytime soon

i hope what i say doesnt come across as disrespectful. i know it sounds so at times, especially online. it is not meant in that way. i respect your beliefs even if i find some ridiculous. fact is i find some of my own to be.

Don't worry, I didn't take anything you said as disrespectful. I really admire people who really think about what they believe and try to find out more about what others think, I find other people's beliefs and opinions fascinating and you had a lot of good points! And you're right, belief is a weird thing - I guess that's why it's called 'belief' not knowledge! Enjoy your vacation