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05-17-2005, 10:38 PM | #61 |
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I love threads like this, because I love hearing different opinions.
Technically speaking I am Catholic, but I have to admit I don't know all that much about "my faith" because I don't care/consider it to be my faith. I have a much more earthy, individual, spiritual, Mother Nature view of 'God'. I DO NOT agree with people who believe it to be a sin to be gay. I think it's ridiculous. If you are religious enough that you believe God created everyone, then you should know that God also created gays and doesn't love them any less than you. BUT, I UNDERSTAND where their ("their" being people who are homophobic) coming from, and can accept it as their point of view. Even if I don't like it. I think people are too quick to judge the entire Catholic religion based simply on things that the pope says/does. "Offcially" the church may do things that are one-sided and close-minded, but UNofficially the Catholic church/religion is much more liberal (and no, liberal is not a bad thing!!!) than people give it credit for. My Dad is Italian/Roman Catholic. He grew up in an Italian town nearby to New York City, attended a Catholic school (nuns and all), and church every Sunday. One of the things that has always pissed me off about the Catholic faith is their seemingly lack of respect for women (I've always pictured God a woman, thank you very much ). BUT, according to dear old Dad, every other Sunday his priest would allow a nun to stand up and participate in parts of mass that are "officially" off-limits to women. He said at the end of every year his priest would stand up and read quite long list of the "rules" their church had broken. His point at the end of reading the list was that "The people are not meant to serve the church--the church is meant to serve the people". When I randomly (and admittedly, rarely) attend church/youth group, I am always surprised at the fact that NO ONE is trying to tell me what to believe, think, or do. When I was eleven I went to Catholic sex ed class and NOT ONCE did they tell us it was wrong to have sex before marriage. They simply gave us the biological facts and that was that. No moral preaching. I greatly appreciated it. Not only that, but I know LOTS of strong Catholics who support gay rights and abortion. Anywho, to wrap my opinion up: It is not a sin to be gay, people should be able to believe whatever they want to believe, and the Catholic church is not all that bad ;-)
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05-18-2005, 01:46 AM | #62 | ||
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05-18-2005, 04:08 PM | #63 | |
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If indeed it is the ACT of sex between two members of the same gender that Christians find to be a sin, than that is the same thing as finding gays to be sinners because TECHNICALLY speaking, that is what it means to be "gay": sexually attracted to members of the same sex, meaning, you prefer to have sex with someone of your gender, and so you do. Basically what I'm saying is finding sex between two men to be a sin is the SAME THING as finding being gay to be a sin, because that's what being gay is (and I'm not talking about person-wise "what-being-gay-is", you know what I mean). And some other thoughts: What it all boils down to is the obvious: sex. I think that YOUR sex life is YOUR business, and anyone who butts into it without any right to do so, is disrespecting you. How the heck is a gay couple doing any harm to a Christian church?? Sure, the bible preaches against it, but I don't believe that any one person (let alone millions or billions of people) should be governed and taught what is right and what is wrong by a book that is literally translation after translation of stories that can be interpreted in SEVERAL different ways. Of course, just because that is what I think doesn't mean that that's the only way to think, because I am not the decider of such things--but neither is any religion. I think one of the reasons homophobia exists is because people are often afraid or apalled by things that they do not understand. As my female mormon friend put it: "Liking another woman? I mean, it's just like, WHAT?" It's hard for a straight guy to understand how a gay guy could possibly like other dudes, or NOT like women. So, some straight guys feels since it doesn't make any logical sense to them, it must "not be right". I think people should be more open-minded than that. Just because I don't understand how ANYONE could prefer living in a big city full of too many people, loud noises, trash, and smoke to a lovely country town with woods, streams, and fields, doesn't mean that they are wrong for preferring cities. It simply means that they are different from me. The fact that EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT has been burned into our minds since pre school. Four-year-olds understand this concept better than some grown men and women.
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05-18-2005, 04:10 PM | #64 |
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Oh and I did like the article, thanks :-)
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05-19-2005, 08:33 PM | #65 | |
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Yea, ur right. I do not consider myself to be Catholic, but I've never flat out said it. I guess I'd feel a little guilty (The previously mentioned Daddy really wants me to get confirmed and, hey, it won't kill me). Plus, since I live in Hick-country, "What religion are you?" is just as typically asked as "How old are you?". If I answer "Nothing", you get the "OH" (meaning, "You're going to Hell, you Heathen"). Not that i should care or anything, but I'd prefer if the Southern Baptists I have to work with this summer didn't think I was an evil, Bible-burner. Not that they all would or anything, but it's highly possible. I don't believe that jc was Gods son either.
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05-19-2005, 10:23 PM | #66 | |
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Then you backtracked and admitted it was right and that we should just accept it. You don't really seem to know what to think! |
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05-20-2005, 01:38 AM | #67 | |
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just as you said, i find it disheartening that people choose to view others through a smokescreen of their own prejudices, and their "argument" for their stand which is supposed to be rational, is merely a re-arrangement of their prejudices in different words. no one seeks to understand, and the issue is, to be frank, beyond mortal understanding! there are so many factors to be considered like upbringing, genes (i can't refute that; what makes me think it's not a possible factor?), environment, etc. and like you said, everybody is different; there are so many different combinations for different people!! what i'm trying to say is i think to continue waging war over the issue and slighting certain groups for their "deviances" in the name of one religion is futile. i mean, misinterpretations of the Holy text had brought about a lot of misunderstandings throughout the ages; to think that being left-handed used to signify you are the son of a devil! and the like. christianity started out as a religion which embraces all mankind; preachers do not preach to the righteous, but to sinners to come to repentance. anyone has watched Chocolat? pere henri's Easter sermon in one of the final scenes comes to mind: “I want to talk about Christ’s humanity, I mean how he lived his life on earth: his kindness, his tolerance. We must measure our goodness, not by what we don’t do, what we deny ourselves, what we resist, or who we exclude. Instead, we should measure ourselves by what we embrace, what we create, and who we include.”
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05-20-2005, 09:41 PM | #68 |
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"what i was trying to say is, that in the Bible there's no mention of it being sinful to be gay, only the sexual performance between two persons of the same biological sex is. one can be gay and not have sex (celibate relationship, just like what one Catholic pastor did i remember reading); therefore he is not "sinful". of course mankind is one sinful lot after the Fall, but i think where homosexuality is concerned, it's not about the being that is sinful (since all men and women are) but the act that is."
So that means that gay VIRGINS are not sinners, but all other gays are? But to be real here, I seriously doubt any gays will NEVER have sex. It doesn't make sense to say, "Well as long as you're still a virgin--I don't think you're a sinner!", because that's saying that sex is a sin, which it isn't. I don't care what gender the person is you're having sex with, sex is sex. I understand what you're saying, and I know that the bible only mentions the ACT being sinful (mentioned by, who was it again? A saint? Not God, that's for sure. Isn't part of having a strong faith serving God? God didn't write the bible), but I read that as saying being gay is sinful--and that is how I'd say ALOT of people (Christians) see it as well. My Christian friend was explaining to me that she too doesn't think being GAY is sinful, but she thinks having sex before marriage is, and since gays cannot be legally married in the US, if they're in a relationship where they're having sex, that's a sin. Which made me think, "Will then give them the friggin' right to get married, and no one will have a problem!" Besides, I think finding the act of sex between two people of the same gender to be sinful is just as bad if finding gays to be sinners (which, though I can see how easily you can support your opinion, I still think is the same thing).
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05-21-2005, 12:51 AM | #69 |
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I'm just saying this. I'm bi-sexual, and it's my life, and it's not a sin to me. I do more good deeds than a lot of people out there (not putting down people on the boards, though. I think higher of you guys. Even though I've been here for a short time, I like you guys a lot already). So if jesus was the savior, he would love me no matter what my sexuality is, because my goals in life is to become a professoinal musician, and try to help preserve peace in the world (seriously, I want to) as well as I do as much as I can during every day, helping people, and respecting people, and triyng to make the world a better place. So I don't care what some religous leader is or says, I know myself, and I don't need someone to tell me what to believe. I'll believe in me, and the power of love and peace. All I have to say to the pope is, and to any other leader that tells me what to do, "I hope someday, you will join us, and the world will be as one." - John Ono Lennon, 1971.
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05-21-2005, 12:36 PM | #70 |
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05-21-2005, 10:34 PM | #71 | |
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well ya. my religion teacher who's a priest told us that the first ppl to create outreach programmes for "confused" young ppl were involved in the catholic church. NOTHING'S PERFECT LADS
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05-23-2005, 11:22 PM | #72 | |
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I don't tell people I'm Catholic, I tell them I'm "Catholic" Naw I don't feel guilty because I know what I believe and just because I don't give everyone details, I don't feel like I'm not being true to myself. I never tell them "I go to church every Sunday and pray before I eat" I simply say I'm "Catholic" to avoid any lectures because I really hate people telling me what I should and should not do (especially regarding things like religion)--and while I think its important to stand up for what you believe in, I also like to steer away from any un-wanted arguements. Then again, one of these days I just may reply "I think the bible is bull****, and if YOU don't like it--bite me" ;-) Seriously, I might. If I'm extra hormonal that day or something... I'm home schooled (and whatever stereotype that comes to mind as soon as you read that is WRONG) and since alot of kids are home schooled because there families and ULTRA religious, I really do have to be careful not to offend anyone because of friendships and mutual friendships and blablabla. I was once having a polite conversation with one of my guy friends about God (and JEZ is he a Southern Baptist) and was amazed at the fact that he TRULY, TRULY believed there was only one way to think, look, and feel about God. I tried explaining in a very cliche way that I looked at God like a modern art painting--if you stood 100 people in front of it and asked them to tell you what they saw, they'd all see something different. He said he got what I was saying, but I was still wrong ("There's only one way to look at the painting!") and then gave me his priests sn. haha I have a question for anyone who can answer: Who was the person to first tell the story of Adam and Eve? Did God tell someone this story? Where did it come from?
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05-24-2005, 01:32 PM | #73 | |
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i especially liked jason's forgotten biblical verse, legendry stuff. i think darling's argument is that because the bible tells us that we should ask for forgiveness in sinful thoughts, "it's the thought that counts"(i know that's not a biblical quote, but never mind), and because is also sais that the action of gay sex is wrong, if you follow the bible, then by being gay which means you have a preference towards gay sex(that's what homosexuality is) you are infact one who prefers sin, and subsiquently, by having this preference, you are sinning. not that i believe that. . If anyone's seen dogma, that's a beast of a film about christianity, which i can really relate to. And God is hot (allanis morisette) hum ho hee. How about an "EVEN Newer testement"?
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05-24-2005, 08:49 PM | #74 | |
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I umm-ed and ah-ed about getting involved in this thread, because it seems to be pretty heated in places and I'm not good with conflict! I've been reading it since it started and have found everyone's arguements fascinating, and I want to state for the record that I'm a practising Christian and don't believe that God condemns gay people, like someone (sorry, can't remember who) said, he created them and loves them just the same as the rest of us.
But I want to take issue with something jasonAVO said: Quote:
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05-25-2005, 02:21 AM | #75 | |
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05-26-2005, 06:48 PM | #76 | |
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As for God's threats to Israel, it seems to me that you're looking at a very Old Testament view of a vengeful God. His ultimate response to us turning away from him wasn't threats at all - it Jesus, a pretty good example of love over tyranny if ever I saw one.
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05-27-2005, 09:07 AM | #77 | |
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I really hope that makes some sense, my brain is frazzled by revising literary theory (exam on tues - aaargh... ) And I've just realised we've kind of got off the original topic, sorry!
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05-28-2005, 02:19 PM | #78 | |
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"Every time you said 'Farm Boy do this', you thought I was answering 'As you wish' but that's only because you were hearing wrong. 'I love you' was what it was, but you never heard." From The Princess Bride, by William Goldman. |
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