The 2009 What Made You Smile Thread

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by Rai

This is still less shocking than him coming out as an anti-vaccine lunatic.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with being sceptical about the vaccine against "pig flu". Even British scientists have questioned the product "Tamiflu" and here in Germany we have many doubters, too, including doctors who won't hand out this not-tested-yet vaccine. At least they have some brains, not our neoliberal government who rubs their hands while thinking of the profits. The Merkel government made a brainless and expensive deal with the company Roche several months ago and now they wanna get rid of their products.

This year the swiss company Roce, who produces tamiflu, earns 1.8 billion euro with the product. So - be sceptical, Rai! Never heard about big propaganda pharma lobbyists?

[Rai]

Originally Posted by Hendrik

Hey, there's nothing wrong with being sceptical about the vaccine against "pig flu". Even British scientists have questioned the product "Tamiflu" and here in Germany we have many doubters, too, including doctors who won't hand out this not-tested-yet vaccine. At least they have some brains, not our neoliberal government who rubs their hands while thinking of the profits. The Merkel government made a brainless and expensive deal with the company Roche several months ago and now they wanna get rid of their products.

This year the swiss company Roce, who produces tamiflu, earns 1.8 billion euro with the product. So - be sceptical, Rai! Never heard about big propaganda pharma lobbyists?

Skepticism is not the same as paranoia. The vaccine has been properly tested and any doctor not administering it is a moron who shouldn't be allowed to practice medicine. Swine flue is serious stuff, and it should be taken seriously.



But let's look at Tamiflu. The company that made it says that it should be administered within 24 hours after the first symptoms are noticed , otherwise it is useless(so the British researchers proved nothing new). The media, in its usual ignorance to science started scaremongering about swine flu and demanded that everyone should be given this medicine, then declared it evil for no apparent reason. Meanwhile the drug continues to save lives.

Then come the idotic celebrities, who don't have any clue about medicine and start pulling ignorant statement out of their arses. At least Corgan didn't jump at the autism bandwagon, but that could be a logical next step

Are you saying that a company that manufactures something essential that saves people's lives shouldn't get money from it?

I am as skeptical as I can be and in the vaccination case, the pro side has the evidence and the con side has the celebrities and conspiracy nutjobs so I have to side with science-based medicine.

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by Rai

The vaccine has been properly tested and any doctor not administering it is a moron who shouldn't be allowed to practice medicine. Swine flue is serious stuff, and it should be taken seriously.

But let's look at Tamiflu. The company that made it says that it should be administered within 24 hours after the first symptoms are noticed , otherwise it is useless(so the British researchers proved nothing new). The media, in its usual ignorance to science started scaremongering about swine flu and demanded that everyone should be given this medicine, then declared it evil for no apparent reason. Meanwhile the drug continues to save lives.

Then come the idotic celebrities, who don't have any clue about medicine and start pulling ignorant statement out of their arses. At least Corgan didn't jump at the autism bandwagon, but that could be a logical next step

Are you saying that a company that manufactures something essential that saves people's lives shouldn't get money from it?

I am as skeptical as I can be and in the vaccination case, the pro side has the evidence and the con side has the celebrities and conspiracy nutjobs so I have to side with science-based medicine.

The British Medical Research consists of scientists and they see nor harm and so do a lot of european doctors. So where's the problem?

Who is 'the media' in this case? I don't care about papers or TV shows which say one thing and than another...

Yes, the swine flu can be dangerous. But only for children, elderly people or people with an unstable body system (heart etc.). The 'normal flu' is more dangerous, just look at the number of seasonal victims and compare that to the number of victims killed by the swine flu.

The pharma corporations spread fear, so they can produce and sell more vaccine (they demand pandemy plans for the governments, so the governments sign big-deal contracts for masses of vaccine). The bird flu was one fine example for the exaggerations and the fear-mongering. Where is the bird flu now? Sure, it was harming animals, but people? There was no worldwide pandemy.

It's a business, Rai. Firms like Roche, GlaxoSmithKline, Baxter or GileadScienes earn their money with vaccine. Huge profits. You think they care about exaggerations?

You can only trust your politicians (even on higher EU parliament levels), who make decisions like that, if they don't have ties to this specific industry (which can be seen now with policitians criticising our government's decisions). Sadly, there are many corrupt basterds in Brussels. And producers like Baxter or Novartis have *drum roll* their own people inside the WHO. For instance, after the bird flu, WHO's Klaus Stoehr (task force epidemiology) changed sides and now works for vaccine producer Novartis.

Corgan didn't sound like he's strictly anti-vaccine, it was more about this pig flu, I guess. He was merely criticizing the marketing crap and the fear-mongering, and I think he has a valid point with that.

Next flu: rat flu.
Awaiting: Berlusconi flu.

[Rai]

Originally Posted by Hendrik

The British Medical Research consists of scientists and they see nor harm and so do a lot of european doctors. So where's the problem?

Tell the dead people that there is no harm

Originally Posted by Hendrik

Who is 'the media' in this case? I don't care about papers or TV shows which say one thing and than another...

You still share their opinions.

Originally Posted by Hendrik

Yes, the swine flu can be dangerous. But only for children, elderly people or people with an unstable body system (heart etc.). The 'normal flu' is more dangerous, just look at the number of seasonal victims and compare that to the number of victims killed by the swine flu.

This is not true. Swine flu, just like Spanish flu mostly attacks healthy young adults and as the video said, they both started out much milder then the regular flu. Then, one of them mutated and killed millions and the other seems to have been contained by a rapid and efficient immunisation programme.

Originally Posted by Hendrik

The pharma corporations spread fear, so they can produce and sell more vaccine (they demand pandemy plans for the governments, so the governments sign big-deal contracts for masses of vaccine). The bird flu was one fine example for the exaggerations and the fear-mongering. Where is the bird flu now? Sure, it was harming animals, but people? There was no worldwide pandemy.

They don't spread fear. SARS was also a serious threat, since although it rarely jumped the species barrier when it did do the mortality rates were much higher then of seasonal flu (they even reached 50% in some age groups). It didn't kill that many people not because it was harmless, but because it was contained partly by the evil pharmaceutical companies.

Originally Posted by Hendrik

It's a business, Rai. Firms like Roche, GlaxoSmithKline, Baxter or GileadScienes earn their money with vaccine. Huge profits. You think they care about exaggerations?

I ask again, should they do it for charity?

Originally Posted by Hendrik

You can only trust your politicians (even on higher EU parliament levels), who make decisions like that, if they don't have ties to this specific industry (which can be seen now with policitians criticising our government's decisions). Sadly, there are many corrupt basterds in Brussels. And producers like Baxter or Novartis have *drum roll* their own people inside the WHO. For instance, after the bird flu, WHO's Klaus Stoehr (task force epidemiology) changed sides and now works for vaccine producer Novartis.

I never trust politicians, only scientist.

Boo, that evil Stoehr guy, he went to work in one of the best companies in his field! He should have become a bus driver instead.

Originally Posted by Hendrik

Corgan didn't sound like he's strictly anti-vaccine, it was more about this pig flu, I guess. He was merely criticizing the marketing crap and the fear-mongering, and I think he has a valid point with that.

With railing against vaccines that have saved lives. At least that 10.863 victims of the pandemic fought the system and resisted the evil Big Pharma. Good for them.

[bearbait]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents re the swine flu vaccine - I know that a lot of people rail against it saying it is untested, but it is really no different from the regular seasonal flu vaccine. It is made the exact same way, the only difference is that it is a different strain. Each spring, scientists decide which strains to include in the seasonal flu vaccine, with the hopes that by the time flu season hits, those will be the main strains being passed around. So each year, the seasonal flu vaccine is brand new - just like the swine flu vaccine is brand new this year. Actually, the swine flu vaccine should have less side effects than the seasonal flu one, because it contains only one strain instead of several.
Swine flu is deadliest in pregnant women in their 2nd or 3rd trimester, children with asthma, healthy children over the age of 5, and healthy young adults. Older adults often have immunity built up from an outbreak of swine flu in past.

[verenita]

another new (and cheap!) dress

[Yetzirah]

which colour this time? green again?

[verenita]

not this time, although i have another green one in mind (but no money in my pockets ; the new dress was a gift from my mum). is white with some red roses and fancier than the other one . it´s not very much my style (i´m not fancy at all!), which makes it nicer

[Yetzirah]

well, it's always nice to have something fancy in your wardrobe, even if you don't wear it often.

what made me smile is a thought that occured to me a couple of days ago. the igloo is growing up! there's another baby eskimo (little bear) on the way and there are three girls/women who are getting married next year! i think this is great! it's just a part of life and i think it's beautiful that we can share it here to a certain extend

[verenita]

[bearbait]

^^ All this wedding talk is rather exciting!! I'm looking forward to seeing all the wedding pics.
And that is so cute - "little bear"! Much better than "Baby Y", which is what we've been calling her (my sister-in-law had "Baby X" in August).

[Yetzirah]

our wedding date has been confirmed

[verenita]

congrats, jo!

my smile: i spent a lovely afternoon with my good friend and bussiness partner. we haven´t seen in a while and we enjoyed a great chat

[cille]

Getting a little tipsy fronm the glass of red wine served during the xmas lunch today at work. Food sucked, but the wine was juuuust fine.. Only, now I cannot concentrate on work and I am a bit sleepzzzzzzzzzz......

[Hendrik]

@Johanna:

Good luck.

@Rai:

Tell the dead people that there is no harm

Well, then show me new statistics that prove that there are "millions of dead".

http://blog.taragana.com/health/2009...918-flu-16915/

You still share their opinions.

I share the scientists opinions who say that the danger of swine flu is exaggerated. And their opinion is based on their own researched facts.

This is not true. Swine flu, just like Spanish flu mostly attacks healthy young adults and as the video said, they both started out much milder then the regular flu. Then, one of them mutated and killed millions and the other seems to have been contained by a rapid and efficient immunisation programme.

That's right, but that was back in 1918, when hygiene and precautions didn't play a role as today. Back then, news also didn't travel very fast. The media net or information net wasn't there.

They don't spread fear. SARS was also a serious threat, since although it rarely jumped the species barrier when it did do the mortality rates were much higher then of seasonal flu (they even reached 50% in some age groups). It didn't kill that many people not because it was harmless, but because it was contained partly by the evil pharmaceutical companies.

...which study said that? How many people took vaccine that actually prevented the SARS virus from doing harm?

I ask again, should they do it for charity?

This is my point: they don't develop this chemical stuff for charity or humanitarian reasons (well, there might be some, but the majority of those sellers?), they do that for profit$. It's first and foremost about the market and not the people. And because it is a business, I say: let's watch them and don't trust them too much. What's more reasonable? You could always say: "Well, look, what we got here, we developed some vaccine, it could save lives, we haven't done major tests yet, but if you don't take it and provide it for your people you'll probably end up with millions of dead persons" -> fear! And where there's fear nobody asks for the real effects or (some of it even deadly) side-effects of the vaccine anymore. I don't call it reasonable to hand out vaccine to healthy human beings and tons of media reports about allergic reactions etc. back this up.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index....vere-reactions

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbi...124_846373.htm

Boo, that evil Stoehr guy, he went to work in one of the best companies in his field!

Rai, what kind of criterias do you have that matches scientific / politic corruption and similiar things?
You also seem to have no real definition of what a conspiracy is or could be. If you don't have a clear definition of it, then you can denounce everyone who poses relevant questions (I'm not talking about aliens and stuff or Hitler's paranoid delusion about "jews who control the world" that lead to the genocide in the second World War, just to make that clear) as a conspiracy theorist or paranoid to ridicule the person or that person's valid points within a debate and that person can't argue with you one the same level anymore, because the discussion criterias are lacking. In my eyes, a corruption (whether it be in politics or on smaller scales) is a form of conspiracy. A small or large circle of people conspires to achieve goals in their own interests (Wikipedia Dictionary says the same: "Agreement or concurrence for some end or purpose", Cambridge Dictionary: "when people secretly plan together to do something bad or illegal"). A partner who betrays you with another partner conspires. So on and so forth. So the actual conspiration is and always was the norm (not saying it is tolerable or justifyable) rather than a fantasy. You can see it with a brand-new debate in Britain: Tony Blair just said it himself that he conspired with the United States in 2003 and he was just looking for some reason that fit to get rid of Saddam. So he lied. He's a fascist, he's corrupt and - he is (was) part of a conspiracy (in the common definition what a conspiracy really is).

Here's also a good article about the risks and benefits for the swine flu vaccine: http://www.foodconsumer.org/newsite/..._26112009.html

Edit: German politician Wolfgang Wodarg (Social Democrats), who's also a doctor and epidemologist, is currently trying to push forward an investigation / investigation committee within the Council of Europe about the role of the WHO and the influence of the pharma corporations. Right-wing controlled Brussels stinks of corruption!

[Rai]

Originally Posted by Hendrik

@Rai:

Well, then show me new statistics that prove that there are "millions of dead".

There are no such statistics. But the roughly 10.000 dead would have been saved by vaccination.

Originally Posted by Hendrik

I share the scientists opinions who say that the danger of swine flu is exaggerated. And their opinion is based on their own researched facts.

Which scinetists? It's hard to exaggerate a pandemic.

Originally Posted by Hendrik

That's right, but that was back in 1918, when hygiene and precautions didn't play a role as today. Back then, news also didn't travel very fast. The media net or information net wasn't there.

And fast and effective ways of creating new vaccines and distributing them worldwide were also not there, which is one of the most important things that keep flu from going all mass murdery again.

Originally Posted by Hendrik

...which study said that? How many people took vaccine that actually prevented the SARS virus from doing harm?

I don't have the data but will keep looking.

Originally Posted by Hendrik

This is my point: they don't develop this chemical stuff for charity or humanitarian reasons (well, there might be some, but the majority of those sellers?), they do that for profit$. It's first and foremost about the market and not the people. And because it is a business, I say: let's watch them and don't trust them too much. What's more reasonable? You could always say: "Well, look, what we got here, we developed some vaccine, it could save lives, we haven't done major tests yet, but if you don't take it and provide it for your people you'll probably end up with millions of dead persons" -> fear! And where there's fear nobody asks for the real effects or (some of it even deadly) side-effects of the vaccine anymore. I don't call it reasonable to hand out vaccine to healthy human beings and tons of media reports about allergic reactions etc. back this up.

The vaccine is impressively safe . Of course there is no side effect-free medicine, and there never will be, there's no need to blame teh evil money-grabbing industrialists for this.

Originally Posted by Hendrik

Rai, what kind of criterias do you have that matches scientific / politic corruption and similiar things?

I don't see patterns where there are none.

Originally Posted by Hendrik

You also seem to have no real definition of what a conspiracy is or could be. If you don't have a clear definition of it, then you can denounce everyone who poses relevant questions (I'm not talking about aliens and stuff or Hitler's paranoid delusion about "jews who control the world" that lead to the genocide in the second World War, just to make that clear) as a conspiracy theorist or paranoid to ridicule the person or that person's valid points within a debate and that person can't argue with you one the same level anymore, because the discussion criterias are lacking. In my eyes, a corruption (whether it be in politics or on smaller scales) is a form of conspiracy. A small or large circle of people conspires to achieve goals in their own interests (Wikipedia Dictionary says the same: "Agreement or concurrence for some end or purpose", Cambridge Dictionary: "when people secretly plan together to do something bad or illegal"). A partner who betrays you with another partner conspires. So on and so forth. So the actual conspiration is and always was the norm (not saying it is tolerable or justifyable) rather than a fantasy.

There is an epidemic, and governments pay money to keep the populations healthy. This is a corruption I can live with.

One question: Did millions of people stay healthy because of the vaccine? If yes, to turn your question around, where is the harm?

Originally Posted by Hendrik

You can see it with a brand-new debate in Britain: Tony Blair just said it himself that he conspired with the United States in 2003 and he was just looking for some reason that fit to get rid of Saddam. So he lied. He's a fascist, he's corrupt and - he is (was) part of a conspiracy (in the common definition what a conspiracy really is).

Tony Blair is a fascist? That's pretty new to me... Maybe I missed out on that goose-stepping home video.

Here's also a good article about the risks and benefits for the swine flu vaccine: http://www.foodconsumer.org/newsite/..._26112009.html[/quote]

From a site that promotes the Squalene nonsense? That's hardly a non-laughable source.

[bearbait]

Hendrik - the H1N1 vaccine is no different from the regular seasonal vaccine other than the fact that it contains only one flu strain. The regular flu vaccine contains various influenza A & B strains. H1N1 is an influenza A strain. It is my understanding that they would have included it in the seasonal flu vaccine had the whole H1N1 scare occurred before they picked the strains and started production (it takes several months to produce the seasonal flu vaccine). It will likely be included in next year's seasonal flu vaccine.

While I do agree that big pharma is a nasty, nasty business, with a lot of lying, cheating and stealing going on, you do have to acknowledge that it takes ALOT of money to get a drug discovered, tweaked so that it is safe, then tested in clinical trials, submitted to the FDA and any foreign equivalents for approval, and marketed once it is approved. It can be 10 or more years before the company gets one cent of profit from the time the drug is first discovered. So they do need to overcharge in order to make enough money to fund the next research product; granted, they oftern overcharge more than necessary. Several blockbuster drugs will be going off patent in the next 5 years, so many of the big companies are starting to get desperate right now and will be trying to push new products through, as well as trying to "improve" old products - something to definately be leery of.

I just realised that this conversation has been going on in the "Smile Thread"!! Sorry everybody!

[srahman24]

Just wrote my last exam of the semester!! I'VE OFFICIALLY SURVIVED MY FIRST SEMESTER OF LAW SCHOOL! Ah! I'm practically bouncing off the walls. Now home to take a much needed nap for a few hours before heading out later to a $5million vodka bar to celebrate

[Emelie]

^ wohoo, congratulations!!

[Cali]

Originally Posted by bearbait

While I do agree that big pharma is a nasty, nasty business, with a lot of lying, cheating and stealing going on, you do have to acknowledge that it takes ALOT of money to get a drug discovered, tweaked so that it is safe, then tested in clinical trials, submitted to the FDA and any foreign equivalents for approval, and marketed once it is approved. It can be 10 or more years before the company gets one cent of profit from the time the drug is first discovered. So they do need to overcharge in order to make enough money to fund the next research product; granted, they oftern overcharge more than necessary. Several blockbuster drugs will be going off patent in the next 5 years, so many of the big companies are starting to get desperate right now and will be trying to push new products through, as well as trying to "improve" old products - something to definately be leery of.

ahh, the voice of reason! just recently i had a conversation about drugs with a close friend that works in the pharmaceutical industry, and he explained to me how much it really costs to produce a pill that really cost 5 cents to make. i still think most corporations are evil bastards.

congrats srahman24, i'm very happy for you.

johanna, that's very exciting

[verenita]

Originally Posted by srahman24

Just wrote my last exam of the semester!! I'VE OFFICIALLY SURVIVED MY FIRST SEMESTER OF LAW SCHOOL! Ah! I'm practically bouncing off the walls. Now home to take a much needed nap for a few hours before heading out later to a $5million vodka bar to celebrate

well done! congrats, shar
i´m thinking of drinking a beer with my dinner. if i finally do, i´ll make a toast in your honour
enjoy the celebration!

[cille]

Originally Posted by srahman24

Just wrote my last exam of the semester!! I'VE OFFICIALLY SURVIVED MY FIRST SEMESTER OF LAW SCHOOL! Ah! I'm practically bouncing off the walls. Now home to take a much needed nap for a few hours before heading out later to a $5million vodka bar to celebrate

OH WOW - that's a lot of vodka..??

Congratulations!! SO proud of you!

[cille]

Eric Wareheim drinking Mate:

http://twitpic.com/txnhi

[bearbait]

Congrats Shar!! That's awesome.

I'm excited about this weekend - 2 fun parties to go to, though they are predicting a lot of snow tomorrow so hopefully we'll still be able to go. I've been feeling better lately - maybe it is because I've started taking my iron pill every day instead of just on the days I don't eat beef.

[Ships_Were_Sailin]

Finished my term!

Get to spend a nice 2 weeks or so at home with the family. Crazy to think im now half way through uni, doesn't even feel like ive started

[Joyful]

Congrats Shar, Ships and Jo!

My smile was my son Gabriel (age 6) upon seeing the crossing guard on the way to school this morning, says "Look Mom, the streetwalker lady!".

[verenita]

Originally Posted by cille

Eric Wareheim drinking Mate:
http://twitpic.com/txnhi

"la bombilla está en la biblioteca" (LOL! hilarious!: the straw is in the library/on the book shelf)
(how did you find this pic, cille? thanks anyway. it made me smile )

ships... congrats and have fun

[srahman24]

Thanks everyone! Actually didn't make it out to the vodka bar as it was freezing outside and we bunkered in with $3whiskeys instead of $12 martinis. My head hates me this morning, but yesterday night was priceless

Congrats ships! It does fly by, doesn't it? Hope you're enjoying it though!

[Ships_Were_Sailin]

It really does shar.

And yeah im enjoying it to the fullest :P

[Yetzirah]

well, sharmin, it doesn't matter where you ended up as long as you had a ball - even if your head doesn't like you know... but i'm sure it'll calm down soon