Mad Men (contains spoilers) - Page 2

Joyful · 10-25-2010, 01:10 PM

I'm not sure what I can add about Betty. I agree that January Jones does a great job of portraying her. I think that the acting in Mad Men is excellent overall. I don't really understand her anger specifically directed towards Sally either. My best guess is that she sees herself in Sally, and does not like what she sees. And the whole Glen thing is adding to that. I don't think that it's a jealousy though, maybe just a negative reaction to Glen after his inappropriateness with her, and now fear of his friendship with Sally leading to more "inappropriate" things. I felt bad for Betty in the last episode where she was laying on the bare bed in Sally's (?) room and they were ready to move. She looked like a little girl wondering what the hell happened in her life.

How about Henry Francis? I really hated him in that season 4 episode where he called Don to get his things, and did not want him to come to the baby's birthday party. What an ass!! I can understand his jealousy to some extent. Betty obviously still has feelings for Don. Everything happened way to fast in their relationship.

More later... My son needs me.

Joyful · 10-25-2010, 03:08 PM

What I think that Mad Men did a great job portraying was divorce with kids and remarriage. Some of the scenes between Betty, Don and Henry when exchanging the kids made me in cringe on such a deep level. Being married for so long, having kids of my own and having friends who are now divorcing really brings this home for me. The hostile civility between Don, Betty and Henry makes for difficult to watch, but good TV. I give Don's character a lot of credit for the way he is with Henry. So calm and controlled. And I was cheering aloud when he showed up for his son's birthday party, even though Henry didn't want him there. That was one of my favorite moments of season 4.
I also loved the moment near end of the finale between Betty and Don alone in the empty kitchen. I loved her smile when he found his hidden stash of booze. It was the perfect smile of still knowing someone so well, even after all of the anger. It was so nice to have them talk without that pesky Henry or their kids around too. And watching her reaction to the engagement announcement was devastating. And then to hear it was his secretary?!? That would just suck. I was very sympathetic to her at that moment too.

hazey · 10-26-2010, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joyful

The hostile civility between Don, Betty and Henry makes for difficult to watch, but good TV. I give Don's character a lot of credit for the way he is with Henry. So calm and controlled.

I think the reason Don is calm in Henry’s presence, and vice versa, is because they are a similar type of man in terms of being relatively discrete and civilised about the whole situation. There’s an unspoken but present mutual understanding of the woman that links them. They are aware of her immature demeanor and can’t really afford to act that way themselves. The two men are also similar in the way they have rushed into a (second) marriage, with a younger woman whom they perceive as vivacious, charming and capable. Betty was very much that way during the reservoir petition, which is what attracted Henry to her. And I must say that she was indeed very likeable during that phase. The same thing with Don and Megan. He sees a carefree, maternally adequate woman who makes him feel comfortable. Megan might not turn out to be a horror like Betty, but the truth remains that we all (Don included) know very little about her. I’m not at all optimistic about their union. I knew Don was a lot of things, but never figured him for a rampant fool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joyful

I felt bad for Betty in the last episode where she was laying on the bare bed in Sally's (?) room and they were ready to move. She looked like a little girl wondering what the hell happened in her life.

The especially sad thing about that last encounter with Glen is the fact that he has let go and outgrown Betty while she apparently hasn’t outgrown him. Glen is no longer sad and has moved on. The children have grown up, but Betty hasn’t. Thus she retreats to an empty girl’s room her daughter has left behind, both physically and symbolically. During her very first visit to doctor Edna, there’s a shot of Betty sitting on the couch surrounded by toys and looking at a doll’s house. Suddenly this strange smirk appears on her face (it’s almost as if she’s looking straight into the camera). It was chilling and gave me the creeps. I thought “Yep, you’re in the right place, Betty. The therapy is for *you*.”

I think there’s a bit of both Don and Betty in Sally. It struck me how much Betty-like she was when she runs away and comes to visit Don. The hair, the outfit, the sound and tone of her voice, and that boiling vortex of emotion right beneath the surface. And just how many times does Sally have to say “I’ll be good”, hopelessly begging her father to let her stay. So agonizing. Like she was trying to convince herself more than her father.

mariaoran · 10-29-2010, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazey

Yeah, it’s strange that Betty’s animosity is directed at Sally alone (Bobby seems to live in a happy-go-lucky world of his own). I’m not so sure it stems from some sort of petty jealousy, that would be thoroughly sad. I’d be surprised if it’s about Sally’s friendship with Glen, considering that Betty is the one who herself initially rejected Glen at a time when he was, let’s face it, her only friend. If she’s jealous and resentful of her daughter it might lie in the fact that Sally is definitely her daddy’s girl (and grandpa’s girl for that matter). The unrestrained, close and friendly relationships Sally has with her father, and has had with Grandpa Gene too (so, with men in general perhaps?) might be what bugs Betty the most. Her collective record of meaningful friendships with men is nonexistent.

I don't think I had thought of it in this context but agree with this. It does seem like a lot of her animosity with Sally happens when related to Glen and Don, and even when grandpa Gene was around. I think it is also the fact that she sees in Sally something that she never had a chance to be. Rebellious, opinionated, almost adventurous. I think she could learn a lot from Sally actually...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joyful

How about Henry Francis? I really hated him in that season 4 episode where he called Don to get his things, and did not want him to come to the baby's birthday party. What an ass!! I can understand his jealousy to some extent. Betty obviously still has feelings for Don. Everything happened way to fast in their relationship.

Hmm interesting, I actually kind of like Henry. I think it was kind of spineless of him to agree to stay at Don's house. But this disposition to let go seems to be part of his character and I think it ultimately helps him in handling Betty. He knows force won't do the trick with her anymore. He can't just tell her 'we're moving and that's that' because she's not going to accept that. He has to let her see and decide things on her own. That's the one redeeming quality I see in his character. In all honesty, I'm very curious to see their relationship evolve. I wonder what he thinks of this Betty, which is a far different Betty with whom he first fell in love with.

But yeah, all in all I like the guy. I would also like to see him develop a relationship with Sally. He seems like he would be a better father figure than Don could ever be.

Also I can't remember correctly but I thought it was Betty who didn't want Don at baby Gene's party?

mariaoran · 10-29-2010, 07:57 PM

Also, This is pretty cute.

Mr. Men

Joyful · 10-30-2010, 02:35 AM

^ That's great. I like Mr. Campbell too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazey

I think there’s a bit of both Don and Betty in Sally. It struck me how much Betty-like she was when she runs away and comes to visit Don. The hair, the outfit, the sound and tone of her voice, and that boiling vortex of emotion right beneath the surface. And just how many times does Sally have to say “I’ll be good”, hopelessly begging her father to let her stay. So agonizing. Like she was trying to convince herself more than her father.

Oh, the "I'll be good" repeating was so sad. I have really enjoyed Sally's character this season and the acting is really good too. It's great casting. She looks just like Betty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariaoran

I think it is also the fact that she sees in Sally something that she never had a chance to be. Rebellious, opinionated, almost adventurous. I think she could learn a lot from Sally actually...

Good point. And if it is jealousy that would make sense from that perspective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariaoran

Hmm interesting, I actually kind of like Henry. I think it was kind of spineless of him to agree to stay at Don's house. But this disposition to let go seems to be part of his character and I think it ultimately helps him in handling Betty. He knows force won't do the trick with her anymore. He can't just tell her 'we're moving and that's that' because she's not going to accept that. He has to let her see and decide things on her own. That's the one redeeming quality I see in his character. In all honesty, I'm very curious to see their relationship evolve. I wonder what he thinks of this Betty, which is a far different Betty with whom he first fell in love with.

But yeah, all in all I like the guy. I would also like to see him develop a relationship with Sally. He seems like he would be a better father figure than Don could ever be.

Also I can't remember correctly but I thought it was Betty who didn't want Don at baby Gene's party?

Oh, I can't stand him. Something about him just creeps me out. I know that the kids need parenting, and I know that Don and Betty have MANY parenting flaws, but I just don't like that way that he has taken everything over in Don and Betty's house. Maybe it is because they never moved. Maybe I would respect him more if they had. I'm not sure that Betty wouldn't have moved sooner if she was asked. The whole marriage seemed so fast and almost desperate on both sides. Quick revenge on Don. But the Betty that Henry fell in love with sure is very different now. I don't predict good things for the marriage, but I am very interested to see how it plays out as well.

I am watching Season 1 again

hazey · 10-30-2010, 10:13 PM

Henry is a fairly likeable guy, but the shirtless lawn mowing setup was pitiful for sure. Very laughable in fact. Whatever gave Henry the idea that anything in and around that house was *his* to mow and show off with? Lol. It looked like Don was pitying him more than anything else. I believe he says something to that effect in that gaudy interior monologue sequence too ("This man could be anywhere else right now, but he chooses to be here"). Yeah, Henry could be in a house of his own, mowing his own lawn, with his own lawnmower. Instead, he cleans up another man's garbage.

I am sad, though, that yet another set of the familiar Mad Men decor is now gone. It took me a while to adjust to the new SCDP office interior, and now the old Draper house is gone too. You'd think that with all those changes the writers could change Don and Betty's interior too.

Seriously, most other main characters have grown...so what is it with those two sad souls?

mariaoran · 11-01-2010, 02:36 AM

^Hah During the finale I had this vision of Don and Megan moving into the old house now that Betty is out of there. Don't know if that's what will happen but it wouldn't surprise me.

Jeez listen to me. This past season has totally destroyed any hope I ever had for Don. I dream (hopelessly) of the day Peggy and Joan go off on their own and open their own lady ad agency. I'm a bit jaded by the men of this show at the moment.

jasmineha · 11-01-2010, 01:36 PM

I was watching a Big Love re-run last night, and I saw "Anna" from Mad Men! I was like, I know her...

hazey · 11-01-2010, 08:08 PM

“You know, she reminds me of you. She’s got that same spark.”

While I see no similarity between Megan and Peggy whatsoever, and still think that Don’s statement is a heavy load of crock, there might be a weeeeee small instance where those words actually mean just what they say. Moreover, it’s not just that Megan reminds Don of Peggy, it’s that by saying that she does Don also subliminally acknowledges certain feelings for Peggy that go beyond friendship/colleague/mentor-protégé relationship. The more I watch the second half of S4 (and for a change these are the times of Don being the one seeking Peggy’s approval) the more I’m convinced that there are certain feelings there that neither Don and Peggy are at all aware of.

Whenever somebody asks Matt Weiner about the exact nature of Don and Peggy’s relationship, asking if they are in fact “in love” with each other, Weiner ‘s response is always some variation of “It’s complicated”. Well yeah, we know *that*. It’s interesting that he never says “No, they aren’t”.

Up until “The Suitcase” I thought I’d always be opposing a romantic union between the two, and I think I still do, it’s just that I wouldn’t mind them at one point admitting that they do love one another in a way that surpasses the aforementioned types of relationship.

**I don't think the dress motif/colour + the hairstyle, and their appearance in those particular episodes is an accident.

Joyful · 11-01-2010, 08:36 PM

Interesting. I never really saw them as having real hook up potential. I almost think that it would ruin what they do have. I see it as a strong friendship and mentorship, but not love. But what do I know? It could be. I don't think that I want that though. I need to think about this more...

hazey · 11-05-2010, 07:49 PM

^ I'm in the no romantic liaison camp too, but I think their relationship transcends strong friendship and mentorship. Still have to figure out what to call it, though.

The Draper-Olson Syndrome

Spare time MM tidbits….Recently I’ve discovered that:

1) When you type “Peggy, Don” in google images, and I mean just those two names without any other specifications or tags (like Mad Men, Olson, or Draper) these are the first 8 search results you get.

How cool is that?

2) Sterling’s Gold is apparently an actual book! While they were at it, they should’ve made an audio version too, read by John Slattery.

3) And my favourite discovery….I’m almost a 100% sure that during the show’s four year run Peggy has never worn pants. I don’t remember ever seeing her in any sort of trousers, not even shorts. It’s always been either a skirt + sweater, or a dress. Both Joan and Betty have worn pants, but Peggy hasn’t. I think that’s remarkable. It gets funny when you recollect the commuting trivia that Peggy told her sister about when she wanted to move to Manhattan. Lol, she states this as one of the reasons for relocating to Manhattan: “On the train, if I don’t have newspapers, decaying on the seats destroys my pantyhose.” Well girl, if that ain’t a good enough reason to buy a pair of trousers, I don’t know what is. And then in this last season she nails the Topaz pantyhose account! Mad Men writers know their shizz, for sure.

“Don’t cramp my style.”

Joyful · 11-07-2010, 10:12 PM

^ The Draper-Olson Syndrome.

Perfect!

I can't recall seeing Peggy in pants either. Now I will look closer. That's a great observation.

Peggy is a really fun character. Flawed, like everyone else, but very likable.

mariaoran · 11-09-2010, 11:03 PM

Oh no, there better not be a Don and Peggy romance. I'm incredibly opposed to that.

In other news. Don says what a lot so naturally this has happened.

Joyful · 11-09-2010, 11:11 PM

^ The gyrating butts with Don's face was my favorite part. Thanks, I will be singing this all night now. People have WAY too much free time.

Dean C · 11-10-2010, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariaoran

Oh no, there better not be a Don and Peggy romance. I'm incredibly opposed to that.

In other news. Don says what a lot so naturally this has happened.

LOL. I saw you post this what video initially on fb a few days ago and almost posted the samwell video

cille · 11-10-2010, 03:59 PM

The what what bit is funnier than the 'in the butt' part imo.

Dean C · 11-11-2010, 05:09 PM

LOL KEN COSGROVE WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN A GAME

hazey · 11-13-2010, 06:46 PM

Quote:

“Don and Peggy love each other, there’s no doubt about it. Don has this horrible thing coming up … and he’s gonna fight it, and in the end, you just have to get up. And Peggy’s there to help him up. Are Don and Peggy in love with each other? I think it’s very complicated, the way it is in those situations; he’s watching her grow up, and she’s watching him fall apart. And I think she expresses more kindness and love to him than we’ve seen from anyone other than Anna … Love has many different names, and I think you can see all of them in [‘The Suitcase’]; you can see all of it.” —Matthew Weiner

I don't know where this shoot is from, or what it's about, but we can always pretend it's the S6 finale.

Look how handsome they are together...

jasmineha · 11-14-2010, 12:15 AM

I almost feel like Don and Peggy are soulmates, but not in the romantic way...

Dean, lol. OMG so funny.

mariaoran · 11-14-2010, 01:09 AM

“Don and Peggy love each other, there’s no doubt about it. Don has this horrible thing coming up … and he’s gonna fight it, and in the end, you just have to get up. And Peggy’s there to help him up. Are Don and Peggy in love with each other? I think it’s very complicated, the way it is in those situations; he’s watching her grow up, and she’s watching him fall apart. And I think she expresses more kindness and love to him than we’ve seen from anyone other than Anna … Love has many different names, and I think you can see all of them in [‘The Suitcase’]; you can see all of it.” —Matthew Weiner

The Suitcase is a great episode. And yes while you can see all the feelings there are between them, I also think you can see that there is no romantic future between them. At least that's what I thought after that episode. they certainly have a special relationship but it can never be romantic. Just like his relationship with Anna was never romantic. Plus I think Peggy knows Don's flaws all too well to ever love him in a romantic way.

hazey · 11-14-2010, 07:29 PM

^ I know, I know. The no romance scenario works better for everyone….I only put up that quote because I couldn’t find it before when I was trying to describe and name Don and Peggy’s relationship. But there is no appropriate terminology and definition, even Matt Weiner has trouble articulating it. Like I said above, it’s a platonic kind of love, stronger than friendship alone but never quite reaching its romantic potential.

I do, however, think that there’s more at play in their maintenance of platonic love besides a general fear of ruining their current relationship, and their awareness of each other’s flaws. Don still has SERIOUS issues with intimacy and honesty. Peggy doesn’t know about Dick Whitman, for instance, just as Anna never knew the real cause of Don’s death. As close as he is to both women, even with them he can’t break down the barrier and tell the whole truth. That’s a major obstacle he’ll have to work on. Somebody wrote once that “Don is an enigma: behind the façade there’s just more façade.”.

And for the following I’d have to go back to S1 and early S2, in hope to establish how and when precisely the Don/Peggy thing actually started taking shape. As long as I can remember those two have been gravitating toward each other. Whenever Don is in trouble he calls Peggy, and Peggy always complies. It may have begun with Don’s visit to the hospitalised Peggy. I never understood why he went out of his way to find Peggy when she disappeared. Sure, Peggy’s disappearing act might have hit too close to home for Don, but other than that there is absolutely no logical reason for him visiting her in the maternity ward and giving her a pep-talk about going forward. Why would he care about his secretary that much? The same goes for Peggy’s adamant and inexplicable covering for Don after the car accident with Bobbie Barrett (technically, she didn’t really “owe” him squat for the hospital visit because she never asked for his help and care to begin with). “The New Girl” is remarkable in that respect, it’s like their relationship hit a whole new dimension within that single episode.

Don calls out, and Peggy answers. That’s unique for two people who otherwise never socialise with each other. They don’t hang out or talk outside of work. They’re not even friends in the strict sense of the word. And to make the whole thing even more problematic and odd, whenever Peggy asks for Don’s help he always rebukes her. She can’t even get a simple thank you - “THAT’S WHAT THE MONEY’S FOR!!!”, yells the ungrateful bastard. That was so incredibly below the belt, I wanted to strangle him. They push and they pull each other.

Ida Blankenship, may she rest in peace, spoke the words of truth to Peggy when she said: “It’s a business of sadists and masochists, and you know which one you are.”

Joyful · 11-16-2010, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariaoran

The Suitcase is a great episode. And yes while you can see all the feelings there are between them, I also think you can see that there is no romantic future between them. At least that's what I thought after that episode. they certainly have a special relationship but it can never be romantic. Just like his relationship with Anna was never romantic. Plus I think Peggy knows Don's flaws all too well to ever love him in a romantic way.

This is exactly how I feel. But the quote is interesting and does make me think that maybe they will end up together when this is all over. Hmmmm

I was never sure why Don went to the hospital to see Peggy either. Still not sure. It is very masochistic relationship for Peggy. I don't know what she would get out of it other than more knowledge of the business and perhaps more respect. Don on the other hand would gain a lot. But I love Peggy... They do push and pull each other for sure.

hazey · 02-08-2011, 08:41 PM

I thought I'd revive this thread a bit. As I'm watching S4 for the umpteenth time, the quiet rumours of S5 being pushed back till 2012 are starting to creep in.

The other night I was saddened again by Betty's forthright reaction to Don and Bethany's date at the restaurant. Jones's body language and facial expressions are beautiful when she secludes herself in the restroom. They say so much, and amidst this massive anxiety attack Betty somehow remains so elegant and swan-like. It's very moving. And all the more sad that the only place where Betty can let go completely is the privacy of a public restroom stall (private public restroom --how's that for irony?). And there's no one there to acknowledge her sorrow, let alone comfort her. I do feel for her in that moment. Don really nipped the wonderful person Betty could have become in the bud, didn't he? Let’s hope he doesn't do the same with Megan.

Joyful · 02-10-2011, 02:28 PM

2012?? No!! I can't wait that long.

You are making me want to watch season 4 again. When does it come out on DVD?

hazey · 02-10-2011, 05:37 PM

Let's hope this is nothing more than fans being antsy and crabby while they await season 5, but apparently AMC and Lionsgate are still negotiating, and Weiner hasn't written any of the new episodes yet (this one in particular is hard to believe, who the hell consciously waits till the very last minute to commence on what is probably to be the pivotal season on a major TV show??), all of which doesn't sound promising even if it were only a rumour.

In the meantime, though: March 29th.

mariaoran · 02-20-2011, 03:20 PM

I'm on my second or third re-watch of season 4 right now. So far Faye telling Don "I know the holidays are hard in your situation, but don't worry, you'll be married again in a year" is the most overlooked, yet prophetic thing that was ever said during the season.

"I'm sorry, I always forget, nobody likes to think they're a type"

hazey · 02-20-2011, 06:50 PM

^ Yeah, that stuff is golden for sure. It was my impression, though, that most people were aware of the biting accuracy of Faye's statement once the fool proposed to Megan. I know I was grinning in discontent, thinking "damn, Faye was right after all". Yeah, her observation sounds silly at the time (in the Christmas episode, I think), but Don *is* a type.

And speaking of overlooked things, every time I watch "The Suitcase" I get agitated about the things that Don says to Peggy in the bar scene and prior to that at the office. He responds in a completely wrong way to everything that she says. That is to say, in a way that suits only him. In fact, he is actually projecting. "You should be thanking me and Jesus for giving you another day!"… Pardon me, mister Draper, (or should we say mister Whitman?), if anyone should be thanking Jesus for giving him another day, it's YOU.

mariaoran · 02-20-2011, 07:47 PM

I didn't remember this until I watched it again, so it definitely made me jump off the couch and have this 'aha!' moment. And yeah it was the Christmas episode, the second one of the season. Soooo early on.

The Suitcase has to be the best episode of the season. It gets better everytime you watch. Don is such a Dick (heh!)

mariaoran · 03-22-2011, 06:48 PM

BOOooo looks like the Mad Men wait is going to be longer than already expected. Apparently they're going to make us wait till 2012 (the last year of any of us). This makes me sad.

10-25-2010, 03:08 PM	#32
Joyful Eskimama Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: United States Posts: 1,276	What I think that Mad Men did a great job portraying was divorce with kids and remarriage. Some of the scenes between Betty, Don and Henry when exchanging the kids made me in cringe on such a deep level. Being married for so long, having kids of my own and having friends who are now divorcing really brings this home for me. The hostile civility between Don, Betty and Henry makes for difficult to watch, but good TV. I give Don's character a lot of credit for the way he is with Henry. So calm and controlled. And I was cheering aloud when he showed up for his son's birthday party, even though Henry didn't want him there. That was one of my favorite moments of season 4. I also loved the moment near end of the finale between Betty and Don alone in the empty kitchen. I loved her smile when he found his hidden stash of booze. It was the perfect smile of still knowing someone so well, even after all of the anger. It was so nice to have them talk without that pesky Henry or their kids around too. And watching her reaction to the engagement announcement was devastating. And then to hear it was his secretary?!? That would just suck. I was very sympathetic to her at that moment too. Last edited by Joyful; 10-25-2010 at 05:22 PM.

10-29-2010, 07:57 PM	#35
mariaoran The girl from Venezuela Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Madrid Posts: 2,118	Also, This is pretty cute. Mr. Men __________________ "This place is a Gynocracy!" repetition creates pattern, repetition creates pattern, repetition creates pattern...

10-30-2010, 10:13 PM	#37
hazey Draper's Girl Friday Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,910	Henry is a fairly likeable guy, but the shirtless lawn mowing setup was pitiful for sure. Very laughable in fact. Whatever gave Henry the idea that anything in and around that house was his to mow and show off with? Lol. It looked like Don was pitying him more than anything else. I believe he says something to that effect in that gaudy interior monologue sequence too ("This man could be anywhere else right now, but he chooses to be here"). Yeah, Henry could be in a house of his own, mowing his own lawn, with his own lawnmower. Instead, he cleans up another man's garbage. I am sad, though, that yet another set of the familiar Mad Men decor is now gone. It took me a while to adjust to the new SCDP office interior, and now the old Draper house is gone too. You'd think that with all those changes the writers could change Don and Betty's interior too. Seriously, most other main characters have grown...so what is it with those two sad souls? __________________ "We de-whimsified ourselves. Yep, we're normal now." Last edited by hazey; 10-30-2010 at 10:24 PM.

11-01-2010, 02:36 AM	#38
mariaoran The girl from Venezuela Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Madrid Posts: 2,118	^Hah During the finale I had this vision of Don and Megan moving into the old house now that Betty is out of there. Don't know if that's what will happen but it wouldn't surprise me. Jeez listen to me. This past season has totally destroyed any hope I ever had for Don. I dream (hopelessly) of the day Peggy and Joan go off on their own and open their own lady ad agency. I'm a bit jaded by the men of this show at the moment. __________________ "This place is a Gynocracy!" repetition creates pattern, repetition creates pattern, repetition creates pattern...

11-01-2010, 01:36 PM	#39
jasmineha Wide eyed and hopeful.. Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Wyoming, USA Posts: 269	I was watching a Big Love re-run last night, and I saw "Anna" from Mad Men! I was like, I know her... __________________ "That's the nightmare I've been running from..."

10-25-2010, 01:10 PM	#31
Joyful Eskimama Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: United States Posts: 1,276	I'm not sure what I can add about Betty. I agree that January Jones does a great job of portraying her. I think that the acting in Mad Men is excellent overall. I don't really understand her anger specifically directed towards Sally either. My best guess is that she sees herself in Sally, and does not like what she sees. And the whole Glen thing is adding to that. I don't think that it's a jealousy though, maybe just a negative reaction to Glen after his inappropriateness with her, and now fear of his friendship with Sally leading to more "inappropriate" things. I felt bad for Betty in the last episode where she was laying on the bare bed in Sally's (?) room and they were ready to move. She looked like a little girl wondering what the hell happened in her life. How about Henry Francis? I really hated him in that season 4 episode where he called Don to get his things, and did not want him to come to the baby's birthday party. What an ass!! I can understand his jealousy to some extent. Betty obviously still has feelings for Don. Everything happened way to fast in their relationship. More later... My son needs me.

11-01-2010, 08:08 PM	#40
hazey Draper's Girl Friday Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,910	“You know, she reminds me of you. She’s got that same spark.” While I see no similarity between Megan and Peggy whatsoever, and still think that Don’s statement is a heavy load of crock, there might be a weeeeee small instance where those words actually mean just what they say. Moreover, it’s not just that Megan reminds Don of Peggy, it’s that by saying that she does Don also subliminally acknowledges certain feelings for Peggy that go beyond friendship/colleague/mentor-protégé relationship. The more I watch the second half of S4 (and for a change these are the times of Don being the one seeking Peggy’s approval) the more I’m convinced that there are certain feelings there that neither Don and Peggy are at all aware of. Whenever somebody asks Matt Weiner about the exact nature of Don and Peggy’s relationship, asking if they are in fact “in love” with each other, Weiner ‘s response is always some variation of “It’s complicated”. Well yeah, we know that. It’s interesting that he never says “No, they aren’t”. Up until “The Suitcase” I thought I’d always be opposing a romantic union between the two, and I think I still do, it’s just that I wouldn’t mind them at one point admitting that they do love one another in a way that surpasses the aforementioned types of relationship. I don't think the dress motif/colour + the hairstyle, and their appearance in those particular episodes is an accident. __________________ "We de-whimsified ourselves. Yep, we're normal now."**

11-01-2010, 08:36 PM	#41
Joyful Eskimama Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: United States Posts: 1,276	Interesting. I never really saw them as having real hook up potential. I almost think that it would ruin what they do have. I see it as a strong friendship and mentorship, but not love. But what do I know? It could be. I don't think that I want that though. I need to think about this more...

11-05-2010, 07:49 PM	#42
hazey Draper's Girl Friday Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,910	^ I'm in the no romantic liaison camp too, but I think their relationship transcends strong friendship and mentorship. Still have to figure out what to call it, though. The Draper-Olson Syndrome Spare time MM tidbits….Recently I’ve discovered that: 1) When you type “Peggy, Don” in google images, and I mean just those two names without any other specifications or tags (like Mad Men, Olson, or Draper) these are the first 8 search results you get. How cool is that? 2) Sterling’s Gold is apparently an actual book! While they were at it, they should’ve made an audio version too, read by John Slattery. 3) And my favourite discovery….I’m almost a 100% sure that during the show’s four year run Peggy has never worn pants. I don’t remember ever seeing her in any sort of trousers, not even shorts. It’s always been either a skirt + sweater, or a dress. Both Joan and Betty have worn pants, but Peggy hasn’t. I think that’s remarkable. It gets funny when you recollect the commuting trivia that Peggy told her sister about when she wanted to move to Manhattan. Lol, she states this as one of the reasons for relocating to Manhattan: “On the train, if I don’t have newspapers, decaying on the seats destroys my pantyhose.” Well girl, if that ain’t a good enough reason to buy a pair of trousers, I don’t know what is. And then in this last season she nails the Topaz pantyhose account! Mad Men writers know their shizz, for sure. “Don’t cramp my style.” __________________ "We de-whimsified ourselves. Yep, we're normal now." Last edited by hazey; 11-05-2010 at 07:52 PM.

11-07-2010, 10:12 PM	#43
Joyful Eskimama Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: United States Posts: 1,276	^ The Draper-Olson Syndrome. Perfect! I can't recall seeing Peggy in pants either. Now I will look closer. That's a great observation. Peggy is a really fun character. Flawed, like everyone else, but very likable.

11-09-2010, 11:03 PM	#44
mariaoran The girl from Venezuela Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Madrid Posts: 2,118	Oh no, there better not be a Don and Peggy romance. I'm incredibly opposed to that. In other news. Don says what a lot so naturally this has happened. __________________ "This place is a Gynocracy!" repetition creates pattern, repetition creates pattern, repetition creates pattern...

11-09-2010, 11:11 PM	#45
Joyful Eskimama Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: United States Posts: 1,276	^ The gyrating butts with Don's face was my favorite part. Thanks, I will be singing this all night now. People have WAY too much free time.

11-10-2010, 03:59 PM	#47
cille creepycute Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Copenhagen Posts: 15,333	The what what bit is funnier than the 'in the butt' part imo. __________________ Yeah

11-11-2010, 05:09 PM	#48
Dean C Eskimo Regular Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 1,058	LOL KEN COSGROVE WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN A GAME

11-14-2010, 12:15 AM	#50
jasmineha Wide eyed and hopeful.. Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Wyoming, USA Posts: 269	I almost feel like Don and Peggy are soulmates, but not in the romantic way... Dean, lol. OMG so funny. __________________ "That's the nightmare I've been running from..."

11-14-2010, 01:09 AM	#51
mariaoran The girl from Venezuela Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Madrid Posts: 2,118	“Don and Peggy love each other, there’s no doubt about it. Don has this horrible thing coming up … and he’s gonna fight it, and in the end, you just have to get up. And Peggy’s there to help him up. Are Don and Peggy in love with each other? I think it’s very complicated, the way it is in those situations; he’s watching her grow up, and she’s watching him fall apart. And I think she expresses more kindness and love to him than we’ve seen from anyone other than Anna … Love has many different names, and I think you can see all of them in [‘The Suitcase’]; you can see all of it.” —Matthew Weiner The Suitcase is a great episode. And yes while you can see all the feelings there are between them, I also think you can see that there is no romantic future between them. At least that's what I thought after that episode. they certainly have a special relationship but it can never be romantic. Just like his relationship with Anna was never romantic. Plus I think Peggy knows Don's flaws all too well to ever love him in a romantic way. __________________ "This place is a Gynocracy!" repetition creates pattern, repetition creates pattern, repetition creates pattern...

11-14-2010, 07:29 PM	#52
hazey Draper's Girl Friday Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,910	^ I know, I know. The no romance scenario works better for everyone….I only put up that quote because I couldn’t find it before when I was trying to describe and name Don and Peggy’s relationship. But there is no appropriate terminology and definition, even Matt Weiner has trouble articulating it. Like I said above, it’s a platonic kind of love, stronger than friendship alone but never quite reaching its romantic potential. I do, however, think that there’s more at play in their maintenance of platonic love besides a general fear of ruining their current relationship, and their awareness of each other’s flaws. Don still has SERIOUS issues with intimacy and honesty. Peggy doesn’t know about Dick Whitman, for instance, just as Anna never knew the real cause of Don’s death. As close as he is to both women, even with them he can’t break down the barrier and tell the whole truth. That’s a major obstacle he’ll have to work on. Somebody wrote once that “Don is an enigma: behind the façade there’s just more façade.”. And for the following I’d have to go back to S1 and early S2, in hope to establish how and when precisely the Don/Peggy thing actually started taking shape. As long as I can remember those two have been gravitating toward each other. Whenever Don is in trouble he calls Peggy, and Peggy always complies. It may have begun with Don’s visit to the hospitalised Peggy. I never understood why he went out of his way to find Peggy when she disappeared. Sure, Peggy’s disappearing act might have hit too close to home for Don, but other than that there is absolutely no logical reason for him visiting her in the maternity ward and giving her a pep-talk about going forward. Why would he care about his secretary that much? The same goes for Peggy’s adamant and inexplicable covering for Don after the car accident with Bobbie Barrett (technically, she didn’t really “owe” him squat for the hospital visit because she never asked for his help and care to begin with). “The New Girl” is remarkable in that respect, it’s like their relationship hit a whole new dimension within that single episode. Don calls out, and Peggy answers. That’s unique for two people who otherwise never socialise with each other. They don’t hang out or talk outside of work. They’re not even friends in the strict sense of the word. And to make the whole thing even more problematic and odd, whenever Peggy asks for Don’s help he always rebukes her. She can’t even get a simple thank you - “THAT’S WHAT THE MONEY’S FOR!!!”, yells the ungrateful bastard. That was so incredibly below the belt, I wanted to strangle him. They push and they pull each other. Ida Blankenship, may she rest in peace, spoke the words of truth to Peggy when she said: “It’s a business of sadists and masochists, and you know which one you are.” __________________ "We de-whimsified ourselves. Yep, we're normal now." Last edited by hazey; 11-14-2010 at 07:38 PM.

02-08-2011, 08:41 PM	#54
hazey Draper's Girl Friday Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,910	I thought I'd revive this thread a bit. As I'm watching S4 for the umpteenth time, the quiet rumours of S5 being pushed back till 2012 are starting to creep in. The other night I was saddened again by Betty's forthright reaction to Don and Bethany's date at the restaurant. Jones's body language and facial expressions are beautiful when she secludes herself in the restroom. They say so much, and amidst this massive anxiety attack Betty somehow remains so elegant and swan-like. It's very moving. And all the more sad that the only place where Betty can let go completely is the privacy of a public restroom stall (private public restroom --how's that for irony?). And there's no one there to acknowledge her sorrow, let alone comfort her. I do feel for her in that moment. Don really nipped the wonderful person Betty could have become in the bud, didn't he? Let’s hope he doesn't do the same with Megan. __________________ "We de-whimsified ourselves. Yep, we're normal now."

02-10-2011, 02:28 PM	#55
Joyful Eskimama Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: United States Posts: 1,276	2012?? No!! I can't wait that long. You are making me want to watch season 4 again. When does it come out on DVD? __________________ "It's not perfect, but it's mine."

02-10-2011, 05:37 PM	#56
hazey Draper's Girl Friday Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,910	Let's hope this is nothing more than fans being antsy and crabby while they await season 5, but apparently AMC and Lionsgate are still negotiating, and Weiner hasn't written any of the new episodes yet (this one in particular is hard to believe, who the hell consciously waits till the very last minute to commence on what is probably to be the pivotal season on a major TV show??), all of which doesn't sound promising even if it were only a rumour. In the meantime, though: March 29th. __________________ "We de-whimsified ourselves. Yep, we're normal now."

02-20-2011, 03:20 PM	#57
mariaoran The girl from Venezuela Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Madrid Posts: 2,118	I'm on my second or third re-watch of season 4 right now. So far Faye telling Don "I know the holidays are hard in your situation, but don't worry, you'll be married again in a year" is the most overlooked, yet prophetic thing that was ever said during the season. "I'm sorry, I always forget, nobody likes to think they're a type" __________________ "This place is a Gynocracy!" repetition creates pattern, repetition creates pattern, repetition creates pattern... Last edited by mariaoran; 02-20-2011 at 07:39 PM.

02-20-2011, 06:50 PM	#58
hazey Draper's Girl Friday Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,910	^ Yeah, that stuff is golden for sure. It was my impression, though, that most people were aware of the biting accuracy of Faye's statement once the fool proposed to Megan. I know I was grinning in discontent, thinking "damn, Faye was right after all". Yeah, her observation sounds silly at the time (in the Christmas episode, I think), but Don is a type. And speaking of overlooked things, every time I watch "The Suitcase" I get agitated about the things that Don says to Peggy in the bar scene and prior to that at the office. He responds in a completely wrong way to everything that she says. That is to say, in a way that suits only him. In fact, he is actually projecting. "You should be thanking me and Jesus for giving you another day!"… Pardon me, mister Draper, (or should we say mister Whitman?), if anyone should be thanking Jesus for giving him another day, it's YOU. __________________ "We de-whimsified ourselves. Yep, we're normal now."

02-20-2011, 07:47 PM	#59
mariaoran The girl from Venezuela Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Madrid Posts: 2,118	I didn't remember this until I watched it again, so it definitely made me jump off the couch and have this 'aha!' moment. And yeah it was the Christmas episode, the second one of the season. Soooo early on. The Suitcase has to be the best episode of the season. It gets better everytime you watch. Don is such a Dick (heh!) __________________ "This place is a Gynocracy!" repetition creates pattern, repetition creates pattern, repetition creates pattern...

03-22-2011, 06:48 PM	#60
mariaoran The girl from Venezuela Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Madrid Posts: 2,118	BOOooo looks like the Mad Men wait is going to be longer than already expected. Apparently they're going to make us wait till 2012 (the last year of any of us). This makes me sad. __________________ "This place is a Gynocracy!" repetition creates pattern, repetition creates pattern, repetition creates pattern...