September 11th 2moro! - Page 2

Loveless · 09-18-2003, 09:45 PM

really don't want to get into a heavy political debate here.. but to answer your question we have republican and loyalist terrorists here. 2,801 people died in the WTC right? terrorists have killed 3,585 people in Northern Ireland. and all this happened about 100 miles up the road from where I live.

tasha039 · 09-18-2003, 10:15 PM

I liked the slide show. I think religious issues are stupid to fight about in the first place but history will repeat itself. Thank you for teaching me about Irish terroism. You all thought I would probably debate you but I love history. You have to understand. Where I grew up, and maybe this applies for the rest of the U.S. we are not taught in depth about European culture outside of France, England. I did not know much about Ireland until I came to this site, and more importantly, Irish terroism before this thread. So thank you. That is all I have to offer. We only learn about these things if you go to college and major in it. And if it looks like I am fighting with you, I am not. Sorry if it looks that way looking back at previous posts. But....what is the IRA. I am guessing it stands for something like 'Irish Republic...or whatnot. And yes, we get terriost attacks domestically all the time. And they are religious-based most of them. In the last two years, the start of synagogue bombings. We have racisim like wildfire. It is just different when terroist attacks are abroad because they lead to bigger things. Look at it: U.S. begged France for support for war. And so on, and so on.

Loveless · 09-18-2003, 11:00 PM

France, Germany, Russia and other countries also begged for more time for the weapons inspectors to complete their misson but were ignored by the U.S....but that's a whole other day's dabate.

the war in Northern Ireland is not really about religion, it's about the territorial ambitions of both sides. the Nationalists want the six counties that make up N.Ireland to become part of the Republic of Ireland. But the Loyalists want N.Ireland to remain part of Great Britain. But where religion gets dragged into the conflict is the fact that the vast majority of Nationalists are Catholic, and the vast majority of Loyalists are Protestants.. so after years of fighting it got to the stage where you could be gunned down in the street based purely on what church you went to.

I.R.A. stands for Irish Republican Army. they are the main military organisation supposedly representing the Republican point of view. the main organisation representing the Loyalists/Unionists are the Ulster Volunteer Force and Red Hand Commando, Ulster Freedom Fighters and Ulster Defence Association. But there is also a third military force, in the form of the British Army.

this website has a good overview of the irish situation.

"Nationalists were in many ways--socially, politically and culturally --relegated to the margins of society. Eventually, nationalist demands for equality led to the Civil Rights campaign of the late 1960s. The failure of the Unionist government to concede any reforms spurred the British government to send in troops to restore order in 1969. It also led to the re-emergence of the Irish Republican Army (IRA), political descendants of those who had fought the British in 1916. It was only a short time before the IRA and British Army were involved in a low-intensity war. The loyalists were not to be left out; the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) and Ulster Defense Association (UDA) both engaged in military action aimed in the main at terrorising the entire nationalist community. For a quarter of a century the activities of these three sets of armies constituted what was euphemistically referred to as 'the Northern Ireland troubles'."

[img]smileys/smiley12.gif[/img]Edited by: Loveless

tasha039 · 09-18-2003, 11:18 PM

see, I learn something new everday.

kavu478 · 09-18-2003, 11:31 PM

I remember studying the conflict in Ireland while I was in high school and then into university. I felt like I had a good grasp on the basics and I genuinely cared about what was going on. However, it wasn’t until I spent a semester abroad that I could even begin to truly understand what was going on. I saw the devastating impact firsthand. I met a good friend of mine from N.Ireland in Belfast. It was just as I had pictured it would be. I saw mural after mural, razor wire on buildings and bits and pieces of battle. I saw the Europa, the most bombed hotels in all of Europe (at least that is what I was told). It was a war zone yet people had to live everyday lives!

I can’t even imagine what it must be like to be in the middle of all of that, nor will I pretend to understand. Thanks to everyone who has helped set the record straight on this thread about what has gone on and what may be continuing to go on. You have given insight to a very sensitive issue. The best thing we can do is to learn from each other and agree that terrorism of any sort is never the solution.

Angela · 09-19-2003, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tasha039

Where I grew up, and maybe this applies for the rest of the U.S. we are not taught in depth about European culture outside of France, England. I did not know much about Ireland until I came to this site

This is actually true. I did not go to high school in the US, but I went to college here. It was an eye-opener to realize the extent of cultural bias in history classes.

I took a college course here in the "History of Europe 1815 - today". I swear, I wondered if we were talking about the same WWII! [img]smileys/smiley5.gif[/img] This is a perfect example, as the focus here in teaching about WWII was on the Pacific theater and the Normandy, whereas in my high school the Pacific was barely mentioned.

It's easy to call that ignorance, until I realized I know squat about American history and literature! [img]smileys/smiley6.gif[/img]

Wheels · 09-19-2003, 04:37 AM

Sorry peeps didn't mean to open up this whole issue... The north is messed up... but they're working one it...

I just wanted Tasha to look at one event. The Omagh bomb on August 1998. There was a bomb warning, police moved everyone away from the location... but the bombers had given false information and the bomb went off in the middle of the crowd. 29 people were killed (and two unborn twins). I mentioned that the US population is rouhgly 80 times that of Ireland to point out that this attrocity was our September 11th.

Our country (despite being 'used to' bombings and killings) was rocked by the Omagh bomb. We were angry and wanted 'justice'. We called for all suspects to be rounded up and 'dealt with'. I for one am glad we didn't do that, we'd have given the terrorists fuel. We waited 5 years before finally a few weeks ago the first person was convicted in a court of law. The rest of them will be convicted in due course.

09-18-2003, 10:15 PM	#32
tasha039 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 669	I liked the slide show. I think religious issues are stupid to fight about in the first place but history will repeat itself. Thank you for teaching me about Irish terroism. You all thought I would probably debate you but I love history. You have to understand. Where I grew up, and maybe this applies for the rest of the U.S. we are not taught in depth about European culture outside of France, England. I did not know much about Ireland until I came to this site, and more importantly, Irish terroism before this thread. So thank you. That is all I have to offer. We only learn about these things if you go to college and major in it. And if it looks like I am fighting with you, I am not. Sorry if it looks that way looking back at previous posts. But....what is the IRA. I am guessing it stands for something like 'Irish Republic...or whatnot. And yes, we get terriost attacks domestically all the time. And they are religious-based most of them. In the last two years, the start of synagogue bombings. We have racisim like wildfire. It is just different when terroist attacks are abroad because they lead to bigger things. Look at it: U.S. begged France for support for war. And so on, and so on. __________________ THE PRICE OF A MEMORY IS THE MEMORY OF THE SORROW IT BRINGS. -COUNTING CROWS

09-18-2003, 11:18 PM	#34
tasha039 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 669	see, I learn something new everday. __________________ THE PRICE OF A MEMORY IS THE MEMORY OF THE SORROW IT BRINGS. -COUNTING CROWS

09-18-2003, 11:31 PM	#35
kavu478 Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: United States Posts: 236	I remember studying the conflict in Ireland while I was in high school and then into university. I felt like I had a good grasp on the basics and I genuinely cared about what was going on. However, it wasn’t until I spent a semester abroad that I could even begin to truly understand what was going on. I saw the devastating impact firsthand. I met a good friend of mine from N.Ireland in Belfast. It was just as I had pictured it would be. I saw mural after mural, razor wire on buildings and bits and pieces of battle. I saw the Europa, the most bombed hotels in all of Europe (at least that is what I was told). It was a war zone yet people had to live everyday lives! I can’t even imagine what it must be like to be in the middle of all of that, nor will I pretend to understand. Thanks to everyone who has helped set the record straight on this thread about what has gone on and what may be continuing to go on. You have given insight to a very sensitive issue. The best thing we can do is to learn from each other and agree that terrorism of any sort is never the solution. __________________ "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." -Albert Einstein

09-18-2003, 09:45 PM	#31
Loveless Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Kyrgyzstan Posts: 1,188	really don't want to get into a heavy political debate here.. but to answer your question we have republican and loyalist terrorists here. 2,801 people died in the WTC right? terrorists have killed 3,585 people in Northern Ireland. and all this happened about 100 miles up the road from where I live.

09-18-2003, 11:00 PM	#33
Loveless Eskimo Regular Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Kyrgyzstan Posts: 1,188	France, Germany, Russia and other countries also begged for more time for the weapons inspectors to complete their misson but were ignored by the U.S....but that's a whole other day's dabate. the war in Northern Ireland is not really about religion, it's about the territorial ambitions of both sides. the Nationalists want the six counties that make up N.Ireland to become part of the Republic of Ireland. But the Loyalists want N.Ireland to remain part of Great Britain. But where religion gets dragged into the conflict is the fact that the vast majority of Nationalists are Catholic, and the vast majority of Loyalists are Protestants.. so after years of fighting it got to the stage where you could be gunned down in the street based purely on what church you went to. I.R.A. stands for Irish Republican Army. they are the main military organisation supposedly representing the Republican point of view. the main organisation representing the Loyalists/Unionists are the Ulster Volunteer Force and Red Hand Commando, Ulster Freedom Fighters and Ulster Defence Association. But there is also a third military force, in the form of the British Army. this website has a good overview of the irish situation. "Nationalists were in many ways--socially, politically and culturally --relegated to the margins of society. Eventually, nationalist demands for equality led to the Civil Rights campaign of the late 1960s. The failure of the Unionist government to concede any reforms spurred the British government to send in troops to restore order in 1969. It also led to the re-emergence of the Irish Republican Army (IRA), political descendants of those who had fought the British in 1916. It was only a short time before the IRA and British Army were involved in a low-intensity war. The loyalists were not to be left out; the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) and Ulster Defense Association (UDA) both engaged in military action aimed in the main at terrorising the entire nationalist community. For a quarter of a century the activities of these three sets of armies constituted what was euphemistically referred to as 'the Northern Ireland troubles'." [img]smileys/smiley12.gif[/img]Edited by: Loveless

09-19-2003, 04:37 AM	#37
Wheels Eskimo Enigma Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Cork Posts: 7,900	Sorry peeps didn't mean to open up this whole issue... The north is messed up... but they're working one it... I just wanted Tasha to look at one event. The Omagh bomb on August 1998. There was a bomb warning, police moved everyone away from the location... but the bombers had given false information and the bomb went off in the middle of the crowd. 29 people were killed (and two unborn twins). I mentioned that the US population is rouhgly 80 times that of Ireland to point out that this attrocity was our September 11th. Our country (despite being 'used to' bombings and killings) was rocked by the Omagh bomb. We were angry and wanted 'justice'. We called for all suspects to be rounded up and 'dealt with'. I for one am glad we didn't do that, we'd have given the terrorists fuel. We waited 5 years before finally a few weeks ago the first person was convicted in a court of law. The rest of them will be convicted in due course.