Damien Taping Policy on Live Music Archiv

[dmbit]

Hi! Maybe some of you already noticed that, but sort of an official taping policy has recently been published on the Live Music Archive.

Here it is:

Damien Rice has the following taping and trading policy:

On January 18, 2004 Damien Rice mgt provided their OK for the hosting of live fan recorded shows at archive.org WITH IMPORTANT RESTRICTIONS (please read details below):

Re: is it cool to share freely fan-recorded Damien shows at archive.org?

Bernadette replied: "Hello tyler, To clarify, having had a further conversation with damien about it, he is happy for live recordings of all the following songs to appear on any NON COMMERCIAL fan swap\trade sites. As he continually introduces other new (and as yet, unrecorded in studio) songs into the live set, damien has requested that only songs that have already been recorded and released appear on any sites (both live, radio sessions and all other sites). This is so people will not get too familar with live versions of the songs and have preconceived ideas about the forthcoming studio version\and\or become too accoustomed to the live recordings .

**The songs that we are happy to have on sites are**

Delicate
Volcano
Cannonball
Blowers daughter
Aimee
Cold water
Older chests
I remember
Cheers darlin
Eskimo
Prague
Silent night
Childish
Woman like a man
The professor

To date, in all honesty we have not asked tapers to do this as we were still getting our policy clear. We are going to be clearer henceforth. Our website will shortly display the above policy and we plan to be more active in policing sites.

Obviously we greatly appreicate the suppport of fans, both who go to the shows and who tape\swap etc. Hope this clarifies it for you and appreciate your respect of Damien's wishes.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

Best
Bernadette"
------------

In following with the above policy, when you import your live Damien shows, you need to cut out songs not allowed to be there. Remember, ONLY the above songs are allowed to be shared here on the archive and in other avenues of show swapping.

To include a show on the archive, you have to do several steps to follow the bands' wishes and preserving the overall solidity of the live recording. The steps are these:

Before you upload and make public the show, clean up your file names and the md5 checksum file.

For example:

If the setlist of a show was like this:

d1t01 - Silent night
d1t02 - Childish
d1t03 - A new song NOT on the above OK'd song list
d1t04 - Blowers daughter

You as the uploader cut out the NON-ok'd song, track 3. Remember to change the file names of the remaining tracks so that the future listeners aren't confused why the track numbers jump:

example:
drice2003-11-06d1t01
drice2003-11-06d1t02
drice2003-11-06d1t03 <-- **CUT**
drice2003-11-06d1t04

becomes ...

drice2003-11-06d1t01
drice2003-11-06d1t02
drice2003-11-06d1t03

don't forget to also change the file names in the md5 file so that the checksums run cleanly. To do this, right click the md5 and choose 'edit':

4be1ea85e786b15eccf8b1f02c21b9b7 *drice2003-11-06d1t01.shn
55a990cd1ca13933f3a024a3d78ee875 *drice2003-11-06d1t02.shn
d62b2f52421028818b90ed1530e8a5f5 *drice2003-11-06d1t03.shn <-- **CUT**
6a8a5ad404306392e9ac2b8a33f426c4 *drice2003-11-06d1t04.shn

becomes:

4be1ea85e786b15eccf8b1f02c21b9b7 *drice2003-11-06d1t01.shn
55a990cd1ca13933f3a024a3d78ee875 *drice2003-11-06d1t02.shn
6a8a5ad404306392e9ac2b8a33f426c4 *drice2003-11-06d1t03.shn

and lastly, in the setlist .txt file change the song numbering so it matches your files. Note in the notes that some songs were cut out by request of the band.

That's it! Upload away after this is all done. Spread the music and support local bands and local music!

And make sure to support Damien and buy tickets to his live shows, t-shirts and the merch booth, and buy "O" at your nearest favorite indie record store or huge chain.

[AllThatLies]

my friend tyler put that through with some help from myself and others. if i had seen this ahead of time i would have just said to scrap it..it's not what i was trying to go for..ah well. and with that said, i personally would prefer NOT to have anyone alter and upload my recordings to the archive, but do what you wish really.Edited by: AllThatLies

[Angela]

Is the above the way it's usually done, renumbering tracks?

What happens, say, if the next album comes out? The songs that were previously unreleased change to "released" status and, in theory, can be inserted into the bootleg again, no? But then the numbering is all screwed up.

And also, if you number shows that way, nobody has an idea anymore what else was played and about the flow of the gig. Or can you write those files into an *.info file. [img]smileys/smiley5.gif[/img]

[Mario]

Who's the jackass that did this?

I thought we all agreed not to push for a taping policy, in order to prevent exactly this from happening?

I've gotten three IMs from tapers pretty much outraged by this. Its by far the most idiotic taping policy I've ever seen, and I thank god I know enough tapers to be able to acquire the master recordings, because this will completely kill the trading community.

There are only a handful of songs on that list I even listen to from live recordings (WLAM, Professor, Prague, Childish, I Remember).

Basically, Im very frustrated because of all the time I've put into opening a Damien Trading Site, and its been pretty much wasted. I'll probably just scrap it now.

[Angela]

That's basically the same stance that the Frames management takes, though for legal reasons.

[cnpubwear]

would this policy apply ot ftp, trees and the like ie non website based trading?

[Mario]

1) Then the Frames are the bigger assholes. I thought it was Damien's fault, but obviously then they convinced him.

2) This applies to FTPs, Bit Torrent, and anything else anyone comes up with.

[pnobles]

ehh - if you dont like the rules that are set for trading live shows, then dont trade. tape it yourself and keep it all to you. that's what will most likely happen, imo

[standonlytofall]

I just e-mailed them to explain my feelings about the new policy, and although i'm sure one person's feelings won't change a thing, i would hope they would listen to the fans...I got the e-mail address from the archive.org/audio messageboards (info@damienrice.com). Here's a copy of what i sent...let me know what you all think:

Hello,

I just wanted to send a quick e-mail stating my position on the recent Damien Rice Taping Policy. While I can understand the reasons you would not want unreleased tracks being traded, I do feel that this policy could severly cripple the Damien Rice trading community. I feel that this policy was a poor decision for several reasons:

1. Most people who trade shows are fans of the artist and would attend a show within a reasonable distance of where they live. I cannot imagine a fan deciding not to attend a show so they can listen to prerecorded shows instead.

2. One thing I loved about trading shows is that I was able to know more songs when I saw Damien live than just the songs on the album. Without being able to listen to these songs beforehand, I doubt I would have enjoyed the show as much with most songs being "new" to me.

3. Many artists enocurage taping of shows (Howie Day, John Mayer, David Gray) have open trading policies and they are still able to sell music. While I have not researched the correlation between an Open Trading Policy and record sales, I believe that

4. People who are not able to attend shows (because of geographical distance, other commitments, etc.) are able to experience a small part of the show they missed. For example, I have heard shows from California, New York, Germany, Ireland, just to name a few; all of which are too far for me to go to. This also helps the listener hear how the artist has progressed throughout their career.

5. Fans who enjoy the artist enough to trade thier shows know enough to not charge others for them, so listeners are not making money off of the artist. They are doing it simply for the LOVE OF THE MUSIC.

6. Many listeners (myself included) enjoy listening to different versions of their favorite songs. While I adore the album, some of my favorite songs have not been commercially released yet. Since I enjoy music so much (especially Damien's), it is relaxing for me to put on a show, be it one I attended, or one I could not attend.

7. I feel that this trading policy does not make people "become too accoustomed to the live recordings" to enjoy them when they are finally released, so much as it gives the listener an indication to the direction the artist is heading. People who take the time to trade shows will buy the album when it comes out, and if they really do not like the album version, the album has already been sold and the record label loses no money on the deal.

8. As far as the renaming of tracks with "unapproved songs" removed is deceptive. As a true fan of the music, I do not just listen to the music tracks of the shows I trade for, I listen to the shows from beginning to end, from the intro to all of the banter in between songs to the encore to the clapping as the artist leaves the stage. I view it as a true archiving of the individual concert, and since each show takes place on a different day, at a differet venue, with a different crowd, with the artist in a different mood, that makes each show unique and special. Otherwise, why would i have 50+ Howie Day shows? I could probably fit every song he's ever played on 4 or 5 CD's, so why bother having more than 100 CDs devoted to him? Be cause each show is unique, a unique feeling, a unique crowd, etc. Especially Damien Rice shows, since he puts on such an emotional show.

9. One of the greatest things is being able to listen to a show you attended on CD. Sadly enough, the two Damien Rice shows I have been to in Chicago, IL, US were not recorded, so I am not able to go back and listen to those, but it is truly amazing being able to re-listen to a show you were at and to be able to feel the way you did at the show again. With the new taping policy, I can help but think that I wouldn't feel quite the same about having a copy of a show I was at if I was only able to listen to half of it with large chunks missing.

I guess what I really want is a better explanation of the reasons behind the Taping Policy. I don't feel that the reasons given adequately explain the decision to allow only certain songs to be traded. When you have the time, I would really like to hear back from you. Sorry this e-mail was so long, but I wanted to make sure I said what I wanted to. While I do not think that my single e-mail will change the Damien Rice Taping Policy, I hope it helps you understand the feelings of the fans who are traders. I feel confident that any true fan would feel the same way I do, and I hope you receive more e-mails of this nature to possibly help you re-think the policy.

With the Utmost Respect,

Jeremy Williams
(jeremy_williams@tayloru.edu)</font>

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Mario

1) Then the Frames are the bigger assholes. I thought it was Damien's fault, but obviously then they convinced him.

Well, that's a bit far fetched - I can't make such assumptions.

The Frames' manager changed her tune and asked fans to not trade unreleased songs due to an (Irish? I dunno!) law she wasn't aware of peviously that effects the artists's ownership of a song.

I don't recall the details, but it was clear that looking at it from her perspective, the thing made complete sense.

It's all different ones the song has been officially released somewhere. So, once the Fake single came out, for instance, people added the live version of Fake back into their live shows (and kept the original track listing intact via empty file "placeholders").

Maybe someone else remembers what the deal was (it was on the Frames board a long time ago).

Anyway, the "taping policy" obviously isn't finalized yet. It's possible there are misunderstandings and this is what they think will show up on, say, MP3 pages such as the one here.

Since Bernadette also manages David Gray it would also be interesting to see if he has one.

But damn it, this is a stupid situation now [img]smileys/smiley7.gif[/img]

[mierk]

So what happens now? Does the trading go underground? Do we start having multiple versions of shows being circulated -- the publically traded "clean" version and the more quietly traded "full" show? What about the shows that are already out there? Are we gonna start seeing doctored versions appear?

While I can sorta see where they are coming from, overall I feel like it's a bad move. So many people I've talked to say that O is so mellow and I've been able to point them to the live shows to give them a full example of the range of what Damien's capable of. Plus, cutting out tracks will totally disrupt the flow of what you're listening to.

For example, one of my favorite shows is the 10/4/03 show. Here's the full setlist:

Delicate
Insane
Woman Like A Man
(brief break to try and fix technical difficulties)
The Professor &gt; La Fille Danse
Volcano
Amie
I Remember
Older Chests
Baby Sister
The Blower's Daughter Part 2
The Blower's Daughter
Childish
Eskimo
Purple Haze (Jimi Hendrix)
Be My Husband (Nina Simone)
Prague
Cold Water &gt;
Hallelujah (Leonard Cohen)
-------------------------------
Cannonball
Face
Cheers Darlin' &gt;
When Doves Cry (Prince) &gt;
Babe, I'm Gonna Leave You (Led Zepplin) &gt;
Glory Box (Portishead)
Silent Night</font>

Now, look at what it would be like under the new policy:

Delicate
(Cut)
Woman Like A Man
(brief break to try and fix technical difficulties)
The Professor &gt; La Fille Danse
Volcano
Amie
I Remember
Older Chests
(Cut)
(Cut)
The Blower's Daughter
Childish
Eskimo
(Cut)
(Cut)
Prague
Cold Water &gt;
Hallelujah (Leonard Cohen)
-------------------------------
Cannonball
(Cut)
Cheers Darlin' &gt;
(Cut)
(Cut)
(Cut)
(Cut)

BIG difference. I realize that taping shows is a privilege and not a right, and that I should be glad that I have the chance to experience all this great music. That said, I think it's not the best policy they could have come up with and I hope it will continue to evolve.

[framesaver]

That has to be the most illogical thing I've seen in a long time. A few notes:

Claire's standpoint on the Frames' situation is that they don't mind full gigs being recorded and traded, so long as they aren't sold for profit. What they do mind is new songs being made available as mp3s, which as we all know can weedle their way into file-sharing programs etc and make their way out into the wide world. This is a problem due to the legal ramifications of 'intellectual property', where it may be possible for someone to rip off your song before you record it properly and you have no real legal claim to it. It has little (if anything) to do with people tiring of the songs before they're released.

But as for the rest of it, it's totally senseless. I don't think they honestly expect us to trim out the unreleased tracks from the bootlegs already in circulation. I know I won't be. They can sue me if they want, but I've given him 2 years of free publicity and I'm not changing the way I trade now because Damien's suddenly put his head up his own arse.

If they would clarify that this relates only to web-based downloads (which isn't trading in the true sense anyway) it'd make a little more sense but as it stands it's just pointless. There'll be no point in uploading things to archive.org because you'll just end up with more than one version of a show in circulation. The whole thing smacks of ignorance of the system and of people wanting to plonk their arses over two stools. From what I read, Mr Gray hasn't got a 100% official standpoint (the actual taping appears more of a sticking point), but at least there's none of these pointless restrictions. (http://archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=3607 )

This is only going to alienate more people just like the Irish Times interview. Well done Damien. *applause*

[AllThatLies]

all i know is that i will not upload my future damien recordings to the archive and will continue to upload to ftp and bit torrent the shows as i have been doing. also, this policy says nothing about covers either. i can understand this policy for legal reasons, but damien should wake up and make a company to copyright his songs as soon as he writes them anyway much as how dave matthews and others do things. also, i do not believe covers should be excluded as those songs are copyrighted and the rights have nothing to do with damien. what? is hendrix going to hear purple haze on a live damo show and sue him? i doubt it..for multiple reasons

[Bumpman]

Maybe it isn't his fault, it could be record company sh*ts, anyway are real traders honestly going to pay atttention to this crap.

[Angela]

To me this almost sounds like it applies to web sites - like the MP3 section here, for instance, that everybody and their grandmother can be referred to: "If you are looking for more Damien, go to....".

It's not like a massive percentage of the CD-buying public (or grandmothers) are listening to his bootlegs. Bootlegs have a much narrower circulation.

If Damien formulated that policy I want to talk to him [img]smileys/smiley7.gif[/img] Like,m I'm going to become "too accustomed to 'Glory Box'". Pffff!

[Alistair]

This policy to me sounds like every bootleg would have to be cut as i would imagine that most of his live shows include a song not on that list. personally i wouldn't really think a bootleg cut in such as manor is acceptable.

It seems like they are just trying to hide unreleased material in which case a lot of the mp3's on this site are not allowed, Are traders just supposed to wait untill the list is ammended before releasing the full bootleg? otherwise as mierk said there will be lots of versions of the same show floating around. I think a no trading policy would work better in that case [img]smileys/smiley6.gif[/img]

[julia]

I think that the policy has more to do with the fact that alot of the songs that we know so well that aren't on O, perhaps are going to be on the new cd and he doesn't want us to be sick of them, by the time the new one is out. Also I was thinking maybe the songs that we all ask him to play at the shows and he doesn't play or songs that he hasn't been doing lately at the shows in the states like yolk or others are going to be on the new cd and he is just holding them back right now from shows so they seem fresher to us.. Just a theory, not to sure what else to think, because I know he has never had an issue before[img]smileys/smiley5.gif[/img] Edited by: jbalogh

[mierk]

Originally Posted by standonlytofall

I just e-mailed them to explain my feelings about the new policy, and although i'm sure one person's feelings won't change a thing, i would hope they would listen to the fans...I got the e-mail address from the archive.org/audio messageboards (info@damienrice.com). Here's a copy of what i sent...let me know what you all think:
</font>

I thought that was a very good letter and I'd certainly love to use it as a template for my own thoughts to contact Damien's management. I was also wondering if I could post it on a couple of other music websites that I frequent where there are ongoing discussions (largely negative) about the policy to help give people an example of an intelligent, well reasoned response rather than the sophomoric namecalling and whining that seems to be the standard on those boards right now.

[Angela]

I liked that letter. Just two remarks for those who want to adopt something like that in the future:

Originally Posted by standonlytofall

3. Many artists enocurage taping of shows (Howie Day, John Mayer, David Gray) have open trading policies </font>

I would make the list of artist who allow trading longer (though I can see you chose comparable artists).

Originally Posted by standonlytofall

This also helps the listener hear how the artist has progressed throughout their career.</font>

I would also point out that this is important for the years ahead. Think of how valuable the live recordings are of Jimi Hendrix, Pink Floyd, Tim Buckley etc. Ten years down the line the same might be true for Damien. It would be a shame if there would be no or poor quality recordings of those shows due to lack of proliferation.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by jbalogh

...seem fresher ...

SEEM fresher is a classic. "Ladies and gentlemen, now that you've heard Baby Sister for 5 years, let me take it out of your ears for 6 months, until my new angry album is released." [img]smileys/smiley5.gif[/img]

[Mario]

So, with a days pause, I have a few reflections. I had heard murmurings, and was fairly certain before I heard them, that there would be an official policy before the next show. However, I woke up yesterday morning and had this policy as a message, and was just disgusted.

I don't know if its a matter of Damien being like most Irishmen and having no concept of what actual trading is, or if he's just being difficult as he is with everything else. But I still believe this is completely ridiculous, and there are no legal reasons for it.

This "legal reasons" thing is completely a bullsh*t copout. If there were "legal reasons" they must only apply to Ireland given the prevalance of taping in the US. And, if there was an issue in Ireland, U2 wouldn't have an open taping policy. So I don't know who this person is that made the claim, but its 100% false.

As far as not wanting people to hear music until its on an album, thats silly. There are no negative effects unless you plan on playing it exactly the same way, and even then the sound quality is still much different. Additionally, I don't know that its anything other than a pipe dream to believe if live tracks of as-yet-unreleased songs are spread around, people won't buy the album. Dave Matthews Band's last album was released in July 2003. What follows is the tracklist, and the year each song was first debuted live:
1 Busted Stuff (2000)
2 Grey Street (2000)
3 Where Are You Going? (2002)
4 You Never Know (2003)
5 Captain (1996)
6 Raven (2000)
7 Grace Is Gone (2000)
8 Kit Kat Jam (2003)
9 Digging A Ditch (1999)
10 Big Eyed Fish (2001)
11 Bartender (2000)
With the exceptions of tracks 3&4, each of those songs was also recorded for an album in 2000, in the infamous "Lillywhite Sessions" which later got into the hands of the fans and was spread as much as an actual album. It was even played on radio stations across the country. And still, the actual release in 2003 debuted at number 1.

As far as David Gray, I can't say what happens on that side of the Atlantic, but in the US he's on Dave Matthews' label and has a completely open taping policy.

What will happen is exactly what was mentioned. We'll just trade the full show privately. I'll have one general login on the FTP, and one private login to host the full shows for people, and we'll all become "elite" traders.

That is, assuming anyone is willing to actually tape a show after this debacle....

[julia]

Originally Posted by Angela

SEEM fresher is a classic. "Ladies and gentlemen, now that you've heard Baby Sister for 5 years, let me take it out of your ears for 6 months, until my new angry album is released." [img]smileys/smiley5.gif[/img]

I certainly don't know what his plans for his music in the future or his taping policies reasons, I said it was a theory that's all

[mierk]

Originally Posted by Mario

What will happen is exactly what was mentioned. We'll just trade the full show privately. I'll have one general login on the FTP, and one private login to host the full shows for people, and we'll all become "elite" traders.

I don't want this to come out like I'm attacking you or anything, but this is just another reason why this policy isn't a good idea. The whole spirit of trading is supposed to be openly sharing music, and anything that fosters people secretly hoarding "special" or "elite" shows just drives a big wedge into the community and starts cliquishness and resentment among fans who just want to be able to enjoy the music.

[Funky Avocado]

I just caught up with a months worth of post and this thread about Damo's new policy doesn't really surprise me at all. His taping policy or lack thereof ranks right up there with this new stellar trading policy. For someone who made a point of saying I wanted to do it the grass roots word by mouth way, this is hardly it, Mr. Rice.

And as far as what Mario should do, it's his FTP so really, he calls the shots. If someone wants to do it different and risk the wrath of the DRM police, then you should go do your own FTP.

Well, I better go and re-rip all my shows and splice only the authorized tracks together. Uh huh...

[Angela]

Originally Posted by jbalogh

I certainly don't know what his plans for his music in the future or his taping policies reasons, I said it was a theory that's all

He has said last year that the music for his new album was already written and there's much reason to believe most of it (?) will be songs that have been around for years. More recently he said he's only written about three new songs last year.

If all that is true (unless he's misleading us) not much will be "fresh".

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Funky Avocado

Well, I better go and re-rip all my shows and splice only the authorized tracks together. Uh huh...

I'd wait. Somebody should talk with Bernadette or write to her and see if this can be hammered out in a more satisfying way for all involved.

Though it's a bit disturbing to hear that David Gray has a open policy, because that seems to imply that above "policy" is not a general one applied uniformly by Bernadette among her charges. In which case this BS might actually really come from ....*gasp* .... Damien himself. [img]smileys/smiley3.gif[/img]

[cnpubwear]

I'm seeing him twice in april and I still plan on taping the shows


we'll see how they get traded when the time comes

[Mario]

Mierk
I don't take it as an attack, it's exactly the point I was making.

Angela
I think it came from Damien. After the conversation I had with him about taping, it doesn't surprise me. He clearly didn't have a concept of how nicely things can work. But clearly he got it from The Frames.

I don't know David Gray's policy prior, but once he signed on to ATO Records, there was no option. They promote their artists largely in the DMB fanbase, and they can't do that without their artists having an open taping policy.

[Angela]

Well, if Damien doesn't get it (hard to believe - what rock does he live under? [img]smileys/smiley6.gif[/img]) someone will have to have a word with him.

But who?

Regardless, even if that idea has anything to do with the Frames, the Frames' policy is (for all I know) only applied to MP3's offered up directly on web sites. I trade mostly by mail and never saw a trader remove anything. That'd be just silly.

[Scon]

Yes, this is pretty rediculous.

I (and presumably many others) do not want to listen to sets where songs are cut out. There's no flow whatsoever. There's an excitement in hearing new songs, listening to how they progress over time live, and then hearing how they end up finally on the studio recorded album.

I think this all boils down to a fear of trading. Some bands see it as a benefit, while there are still some who see it as a threat.

Hearing a new song on a recording is a fantastic thing. Not something that makes you hate a new album when you hear the songs final studio version.

Look at fans of the Beatles who collect all their unreleased work. They salivate over the thought of having 8 outtakes of Revolver, etc. I don't understand where this view of 'fans will be disappointed that the final version is not the same' came from? It seems like a poor presumption rather than an experienced fact.

I hope DRM take the time to study the effects trading has had on other bands who openly encourage it. It'll hopefully open their eyes a little.

I'm still not sure about the whole copyright thing. If there is a threat there, surely it is possible to cr it before it's played live. I know Dave Matthews Band do this. It's not very difficult to go remember chunks of the song anyway, so if people really wanted to do so, we'd be seeing it happening in a (smaller) way already.

I really think some discussion with the fans on this is needed. Sometimes they seal themselves off from us too much.Edited by: Scon