American politics

bearbait · 01-12-2008, 05:42 PM

I know Gore said he wouldn't run for Pres, but did he say anything about not running for VP?? The other day my husband came up with the idea of an Obama/Gore ticket. I think that Gore would make a great running mate, except maybe not for Clinton - don't know if a Clinton/Gore combo would make it to the white house again.
Just ramblin'.

Wheels · 01-12-2008, 06:15 PM

Pretty certain he said he'd never be VP again.

administrator · 01-12-2008, 06:24 PM

Yeah, Gore said just before Christmas that if he ever did return to politics, it would only be for the top job. I've been supporting a Gore / Obama ticket for ages now, but I think we had to give up on that last October...

However, some serious people seem to think that there is a chance there will be a contested convention at the end of August, with no easily confirmed Democratic nominee. In that situation, it's possible that Gore could enter the frame as the consensus candidate instead of Clinton or Obama. (Possibly why Gore hasn't endorsed anyone yet...)

However, I think Clinton will have it sewn up on Super Tuesday. And I'm going to predict a Hillary Clinton / Wesley Clark Democratic ticket...

#Ian# · 01-12-2008, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by administrator

However, I think Clinton will have it sewn up on Super Tuesday.

Horrible thought.

Rai · 01-12-2008, 07:03 PM

I like the Obama part of the proposal

But I'm not a great fan of Gore. He has a charisma of a dead warthog. And the fact that he's trying to blame the whole Kyoto stuff on Bush and co. while it was his administration that did not ratify it doesn't help him much in my eyes.

A Clinton/Clark would also be far from heaven. There's something about her that bothers me a lot and the only impression I have about Clark is his terrible commanding of the Kosovo war.

But Barack is my man

(and his name means peach in my language

)

Rue Saint-Denis · 01-12-2008, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #Ian#

Horrible thought.

agreed

Cali · 01-12-2008, 10:57 PM

oh no he didn't (0:45)

bearbait · 01-13-2008, 12:14 AM

[quote=Rai] But I'm not a great fan of Gore. He has a charisma of a dead warthog. QUOTE]

Dead warthog, that's funny!! Actually, I like Gore's personality - he has a very dry sense of humor. Not your typical politician's personality, but then again I don't like typical politicians

I really need to do some research into the candidates' platforms, I need to find a source that has everything spelled out nice and neat, I just don't have a lot of time.

Cali · 01-13-2008, 12:21 AM

the washington post had a very neat chart about many issues and the candidates' stand on them, but i can't find it anymore. it must be there somewhere

charisma is overrated

Rai · 01-13-2008, 07:45 AM

^A politician has to give speeches, appear on TV and live events, meet with other politicians. In face-to-face diplomacy, charisma matters a lot. You won't be convincing anyone just by facts, that's nonsense. Diplomacy is about charming (or forcing) the opponent to do what you want and that won't happen without charisma.

administrator · 01-13-2008, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rai

I like the Obama part of the proposal

But I'm not a great fan of Gore. He has a charisma of a dead warthog. And the fact that he's trying to blame the whole Kyoto stuff on Bush and co. while it was his administration that did not ratify it doesn't help him much in my eyes.

A Clinton/Clark would also be far from heaven. There's something about her that bothers me a lot and the only impression I have about Clark is his terrible commanding of the Kosovo war.

But Barack is my man

(and his name means peach in my language

)

I think that Al Gore (of the last few years, not of the 2000 campaign) is the most charismatic politician around... He's funny, self-depracating, angry (i like politicians who are angry) and inspirational... but I think it's a shame when charisma is the main thing that people look for in a President...

I think Gore did pretty much everything possible on Kyoto when he was in power, but he didn't have a Democratic congress, so there's not much they could do...

And I thought Wesley Clark was a pretty great commander in Kosovo... they didn't lose a single American in that war... he kept together a very strong coalition... and civilian casualties were very low considering the scale of the conflict... My impression is that that was one of the most successful interventions, if not the most successful, in US history. No?

Bumpman · 01-13-2008, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rai

^A politician has to give speeches, appear on TV and live events, meet with other politicians. In face-to-face diplomacy, charisma matters a lot. You won't be convincing anyone just by facts, that's nonsense. Diplomacy is about charming (or forcing) the opponent to do what you want and that won't happen without charisma.

Right on soul sister, charisma is quite a big deal in the Democratic nomination this time 'round. Hillary's tactic of hitting out at Obama by saying that words don't change anything really made me remember why she's so divisive, then Bill saying that his campaign is a "fairytale" was just the icing on the cake. It's dampened my impression of both of them.

As such I'd take issue with the idea that it'll be sewn up for Clinton on Super Tuesday, if she loses Nevada and South Carolina she's in trouble again. She's been getting a lot of negative press (CNN/Washington Post) in the last few days over her quasi-racist comments. Obama has been getting large Union endorsements in key states and plugs from John Kerry, Colin Powell and a couple of other bigwigs. I wouldn't discount his chances on Feb 5th

Have you guys seen this? I'm not really sure what to think of it. It seems like a pretty big hurdle to get past for a long-shot campaign.

Bumpman · 01-13-2008, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by administrator

My impression is that that was one of the most successful interventions, if not the most successful, in US history. No?

That really depends on your definition of success, If you're talking about actual lives lost then you're probably right, if you're talking about preserving political freedom then it's WWII.

Every new day is the result of Richard Nixon losing to JFK in 1960. The Bay of Pigs would have been something entirely different with Nixon at the helm, but he wasn't, and cooler heads prevailed. If you're talking about potential lives saved the Cuban Missile Crisis wins in my mind.

Rai · 01-13-2008, 01:17 PM

The whole Kosovo war was based on the false doctrine that a war can be won from the air alone. NATO, the single most powerful military entity that has ever existed took two and a half months to achieve its moderate goals (stop genocide, get the Serbian army out of Kosovo) against a small post-communist county. There was no great loss of life, but there was large-scale and unnecessary destruction of civilian infrastructure. The Serbian army was not broken, its losses were insignificant and the fact that they left was only attributable to Milosevic's political finesse and was not really influenced by the bombing. If he hadn't been cunning old manipulator he was, he would and could have resisted for months. Plus, if a certain British commander had followed his orders from Clark, he would have attacked a group of Russian paratroopers that would have had very grave consequences. I think the most successful US intervention was the Tanker War in 1987-1988.

I don't find Gore funny. He makes jokes, reuses them a lot and he is not witty. And my problem is not that he didn't achieve the signing of Kyoto (which was and probably is impossible to get through both houses) but that he blames it on the present administration without mentioning his and Clinton's failure. I don't like demagogy even for good purposes.

Charisma is far fro the main thing, just look at Bill Clinton. He had tons of it (it fuelling 70% of Hillary's campaign even now) but wasn't that great a President (Rwanda anyone?). But if it is missing, it makes all the good policies, views and solutions worthless because without it no-one will endorse them. The 2:43 minutes of David Attenborough on Youtube is far more convincing than the whole of the Inconvenient Truth. It has the same facts but the presenter makes a lot of difference.

bearbait · 01-13-2008, 03:21 PM

The thing is, ALL politicians are going to say things that are stupid or deragatory or whatever, or get perceived athat way. But think about it,we all say things at some point in our lives that we don't mean or that just comes out wrong. The problem is, for politicians it gets recorded, then played back and analyzed endlessly.
And, I don't know of any politicians who at some point didn't lie or didn't own up to something. I don't condone it, but it's just the nature of politics. They need to realise that owning up to their mistakes, and then saying what they learned from them, would actually help them in the long run.

The candidates' foreign policies are important, but what will make it or break it for me are their domestic policies - for example, abortion, gay marriage/civil union, health care, the environment, etc. But I'm worried that a candidate who shares my beliefs will not be electable.

Hendrik · 01-14-2008, 09:31 PM

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

Pimp my conspiracies.

bearbait · 01-19-2008, 06:48 PM

Here's a little quiz to take to find out which candidates you are most like:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politic...match-game.htm

For me it picked Mike Gravel as number one (never heard of him til now, but we were eye-to-eye on lots of things), Kucinich was number two, and for number three it picked McCain, which surprised me. I thought about it some more, re-did the test and it still had Gravel and Kucinich but this time Huckabee was number three, probably b/c I switched from senate experience to governor experience. I was dismayed to have Republicans show up, but my husband informed me that both are liberal republicans.

Rai · 01-19-2008, 10:32 PM

^Only judging from what The Economist writes, this McCain guy does seem to be a rather all right fellow...

carvinC980t_kid · 01-20-2008, 12:26 AM

"American Politics..."

are F*CKED UP, yo

Bumpman · 01-21-2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rai

^Only judging from what The Economist writes, this McCain guy does seem to be a rather all right fellow...

I could concur with that assessment to some extent, it's hard not to respect torture victims.

He's an astoundingly poor orater though. His victory speech in New Hampshire was one of the most grating things I've ever heard.

viv · 01-21-2008, 03:15 PM

I used to respect McCain, but then he started supporting the war. Of all the people in Washington I would think that he would recognize the many reasons we shouldn't be there. How can someone who has been through that kind of hell be willing to put others through it?

Rai · 01-21-2008, 03:17 PM

^And he looks a bit like Charlie Brown too...

viv · 01-21-2008, 03:23 PM

administrator · 01-21-2008, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rai

^Only judging from what The Economist writes, this McCain guy does seem to be a rather all right fellow...

Well, maybe, if you're going by comparison with the other Republic candidates... I think I lot of people have lost a lot of respect for him in the last couple of years over the Iraq war and his sucking up to Jerry Falwell and George W Bush.... I can't imagine how his 100 Years in Iraq policy is going to be popular in the general election... but if one of McCain, Romney, Huckabee, or Giuliani has to be President, let's hope it's McCain!

SisterMidnight · 01-21-2008, 03:53 PM

i don't think a republican has a snowball's chance in hell of being elected, but i'd agree, if it is a republican mccain would be the lesser of the evils. anyone but huckabee..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cali

the washington post had a very neat chart about many issues and the candidates' stand on them, but i can't find it anymore. it must be there somewhere

charisma is overrated

is this the one you were talking about, cali?

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/2...al-candidates/

and i agree, charisma's just another word for the ability to manipulate others. i mean, hitler had charisma.. diplomacy is about negotiation and mediation, knowing the issues in depth and finding common ground to bring everyone to the table to compromise for the greater good. it's a very complex skill set, to think all it takes is charm is just simplistic.

bearbait · 01-21-2008, 05:05 PM

Thanks SisterMidnight, that link is very helpful.

I still don't get how the USA Today quiz could have matched me with two rather out-there leftists and a republican!! Granted, it wasn't a very good quiz and I often felt I was forced to pick just one answer when I liked two or three responses . . . but still.

ETA: I re-took it after reconsidering the environmental question, and now it's got me matched with Gravel and Kucinich still as 1 & 2, but now Clinton is #3 instead of McCain.

Cali · 01-21-2008, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SisterMidnight

i don't think a republican has a snowball's chance in hell of being elected, but i'd agree, if it is a republican mccain would be the lesser of the evils. anyone but huckabee..

is this the one you were talking about, cali?

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/2...al-candidates/

no, that's not it. the chart that i saw was sorted by issue. it was very didactic, i thought i had it bookmarked but i can't find it anywhere

"anyone but huckabee"

agree 100% he is the scariest one of them all. he talks about religion and morals but actually spreads hate. it's that dichotomy i don't get. here's a video from last week's real time, this is the huckabee part. check out minute 5:53

Five Leaves Left · 01-21-2008, 06:16 PM

I think Huckabee would be a good Republican for the democrats to run against in November. He has too many things going against him for him to win because he's not a fiscal conservative by anyone's standards and not enough people want someone to impose morality on them (maybe in the primaries because they're passionate about it and not enough people vote in the primaries). It really shouldn't matter what religion a candidate is and its ashame that Huckabee has tried to make it matter by pandering to Christian groups to get their votes, all that should matter is individual rights then it doesn't matter if he's against things like homosexuality because from a political standpoint all he would see is individuals not collective groups of people. Even the founding fathers wanted freedom of religion and many of them were Christians. Shame on Huckabee for disgracing the United States, the Constitution, and Christians.

Five Leaves Left · 01-21-2008, 06:20 PM

I had to sit through this in person....

viv · 01-21-2008, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five Leaves Left

I think Huckabee would be a good Republican for the democrats to run against in November. He has too many things going against him for him to win because he's not a fiscal conservative by anyone's standards and not enough people want someone to impose morality on them (maybe in the primaries because they're passionate about it and not enough people vote in the primaries). It really shouldn't matter what religion a candidate is and its ashame that Huckabee has tried to make it matter by pandering to Christian groups to get their votes, all that should matter is individual rights then it doesn't matter if he's against things like homosexuality because from a political standpoint all he would see is individuals not collective groups of people. Even the founding fathers wanted freedom of religion and many of them were Christians. Shame on Huckabee for disgracing the United States, the Constitution, and Christians.

Unfortunately there is a sizable chunk of the American population that don't see the importance (both for the political system and religion itself) of the separation of church and state. And too many of them would cream themselves if we got someone so overtly religious in the white house.

You know at least one of the supreme court justices will either die or retire in the next 4 years, and if another conservative judge gets in their the court will be too lopsided for any so-called liberal issue to stand a chance. That really scares me.

01-12-2008, 05:42 PM	#1
bearbait Eskimo Pie Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 868	American politics I know Gore said he wouldn't run for Pres, but did he say anything about not running for VP?? The other day my husband came up with the idea of an Obama/Gore ticket. I think that Gore would make a great running mate, except maybe not for Clinton - don't know if a Clinton/Gore combo would make it to the white house again. Just ramblin'.

01-12-2008, 06:15 PM	#2
Wheels Eskimo Enigma Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Cork Posts: 7,900	Pretty certain he said he'd never be VP again. __________________

01-12-2008, 07:03 PM	#5
Rai Eskimontologist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Robo-Hungarian Empire Posts: 2,345	I like the Obama part of the proposal But I'm not a great fan of Gore. He has a charisma of a dead warthog. And the fact that he's trying to blame the whole Kyoto stuff on Bush and co. while it was his administration that did not ratify it doesn't help him much in my eyes. A Clinton/Clark would also be far from heaven. There's something about her that bothers me a lot and the only impression I have about Clark is his terrible commanding of the Kosovo war. But Barack is my man (and his name means peach in my language ) __________________ "There's, another example. See, here I'm now sitting by myself, uh, er, talking to myself. That's, that's chaos." "If you find you've got a dragon charging at you at thirty miles per hour snapping its teeth you can always drive it defensively through the covers"

01-12-2008, 10:57 PM	#7
Cali Vegetable Eskimo Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: A room of musical tunes Posts: 5,158	oh no he didn't (0:45) __________________ Scrubs Ted and Kate Micucci Screw You (full song) __________________________________ note: my name is NOT short for California

01-13-2008, 12:21 AM	#9
Cali Vegetable Eskimo Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: A room of musical tunes Posts: 5,158	the washington post had a very neat chart about many issues and the candidates' stand on them, but i can't find it anymore. it must be there somewhere charisma is overrated __________________ Scrubs Ted and Kate Micucci Screw You (full song) __________________________________ note: my name is NOT short for California Last edited by Cali; 01-13-2008 at 12:23 AM.

01-12-2008, 06:24 PM	#3
administrator forum administrator Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,480	Yeah, Gore said just before Christmas that if he ever did return to politics, it would only be for the top job. I've been supporting a Gore / Obama ticket for ages now, but I think we had to give up on that last October... However, some serious people seem to think that there is a chance there will be a contested convention at the end of August, with no easily confirmed Democratic nominee. In that situation, it's possible that Gore could enter the frame as the consensus candidate instead of Clinton or Obama. (Possibly why Gore hasn't endorsed anyone yet...) However, I think Clinton will have it sewn up on Super Tuesday. And I'm going to predict a Hillary Clinton / Wesley Clark Democratic ticket... __________________ Keep checking the news page for all the latest Damien Rice news.

01-13-2008, 12:14 AM	#8
bearbait Eskimo Pie Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 868	[quote=Rai] But I'm not a great fan of Gore. He has a charisma of a dead warthog. QUOTE] Dead warthog, that's funny!! Actually, I like Gore's personality - he has a very dry sense of humor. Not your typical politician's personality, but then again I don't like typical politicians I really need to do some research into the candidates' platforms, I need to find a source that has everything spelled out nice and neat, I just don't have a lot of time.

01-13-2008, 07:45 AM	#10
Rai Eskimontologist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Robo-Hungarian Empire Posts: 2,345	^A politician has to give speeches, appear on TV and live events, meet with other politicians. In face-to-face diplomacy, charisma matters a lot. You won't be convincing anyone just by facts, that's nonsense. Diplomacy is about charming (or forcing) the opponent to do what you want and that won't happen without charisma. __________________ "There's, another example. See, here I'm now sitting by myself, uh, er, talking to myself. That's, that's chaos." "If you find you've got a dragon charging at you at thirty miles per hour snapping its teeth you can always drive it defensively through the covers"

01-13-2008, 01:17 PM	#14
Rai Eskimontologist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Robo-Hungarian Empire Posts: 2,345	The whole Kosovo war was based on the false doctrine that a war can be won from the air alone. NATO, the single most powerful military entity that has ever existed took two and a half months to achieve its moderate goals (stop genocide, get the Serbian army out of Kosovo) against a small post-communist county. There was no great loss of life, but there was large-scale and unnecessary destruction of civilian infrastructure. The Serbian army was not broken, its losses were insignificant and the fact that they left was only attributable to Milosevic's political finesse and was not really influenced by the bombing. If he hadn't been cunning old manipulator he was, he would and could have resisted for months. Plus, if a certain British commander had followed his orders from Clark, he would have attacked a group of Russian paratroopers that would have had very grave consequences. I think the most successful US intervention was the Tanker War in 1987-1988. I don't find Gore funny. He makes jokes, reuses them a lot and he is not witty. And my problem is not that he didn't achieve the signing of Kyoto (which was and probably is impossible to get through both houses) but that he blames it on the present administration without mentioning his and Clinton's failure. I don't like demagogy even for good purposes. Charisma is far fro the main thing, just look at Bill Clinton. He had tons of it (it fuelling 70% of Hillary's campaign even now) but wasn't that great a President (Rwanda anyone?). But if it is missing, it makes all the good policies, views and solutions worthless because without it no-one will endorse them. The 2:43 minutes of David Attenborough on Youtube is far more convincing than the whole of the Inconvenient Truth. It has the same facts but the presenter makes a lot of difference. __________________ "There's, another example. See, here I'm now sitting by myself, uh, er, talking to myself. That's, that's chaos." "If you find you've got a dragon charging at you at thirty miles per hour snapping its teeth you can always drive it defensively through the covers"

01-13-2008, 03:21 PM	#15
bearbait Eskimo Pie Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 868	The thing is, ALL politicians are going to say things that are stupid or deragatory or whatever, or get perceived athat way. But think about it,we all say things at some point in our lives that we don't mean or that just comes out wrong. The problem is, for politicians it gets recorded, then played back and analyzed endlessly. And, I don't know of any politicians who at some point didn't lie or didn't own up to something. I don't condone it, but it's just the nature of politics. They need to realise that owning up to their mistakes, and then saying what they learned from them, would actually help them in the long run. The candidates' foreign policies are important, but what will make it or break it for me are their domestic policies - for example, abortion, gay marriage/civil union, health care, the environment, etc. But I'm worried that a candidate who shares my beliefs will not be electable. Last edited by bearbait; 01-13-2008 at 04:49 PM.

01-14-2008, 09:31 PM	#16
Hendrik Teddy Daniels Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Berlin Posts: 9,693	http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ Pimp my conspiracies.

01-19-2008, 06:48 PM	#17
bearbait Eskimo Pie Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 868	Here's a little quiz to take to find out which candidates you are most like: http://www.usatoday.com/news/politic...match-game.htm For me it picked Mike Gravel as number one (never heard of him til now, but we were eye-to-eye on lots of things), Kucinich was number two, and for number three it picked McCain, which surprised me. I thought about it some more, re-did the test and it still had Gravel and Kucinich but this time Huckabee was number three, probably b/c I switched from senate experience to governor experience. I was dismayed to have Republicans show up, but my husband informed me that both are liberal republicans.

01-19-2008, 10:32 PM	#18
Rai Eskimontologist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Robo-Hungarian Empire Posts: 2,345	^Only judging from what The Economist writes, this McCain guy does seem to be a rather all right fellow... __________________ "There's, another example. See, here I'm now sitting by myself, uh, er, talking to myself. That's, that's chaos." "If you find you've got a dragon charging at you at thirty miles per hour snapping its teeth you can always drive it defensively through the covers"

01-20-2008, 12:26 AM	#19
carvinC980t_kid Eskimo Regular Join Date: May 2006 Location: noblesville indiana, aka people with too much money producing ignorant children Posts: 2,662	"American Politics..." are F*CKED UP, yo __________________ "And live for the moment, Lord knows I'm gon' die And when I get to hell, Lord knows I'm gon' fry" young jeezy - i luv it

01-21-2008, 03:15 PM	#21
viv Eskimo Regular Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 227	I used to respect McCain, but then he started supporting the war. Of all the people in Washington I would think that he would recognize the many reasons we shouldn't be there. How can someone who has been through that kind of hell be willing to put others through it?

01-21-2008, 03:17 PM	#22
Rai Eskimontologist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Robo-Hungarian Empire Posts: 2,345	^And he looks a bit like Charlie Brown too... __________________ "There's, another example. See, here I'm now sitting by myself, uh, er, talking to myself. That's, that's chaos." "If you find you've got a dragon charging at you at thirty miles per hour snapping its teeth you can always drive it defensively through the covers"

01-21-2008, 03:23 PM	#23
viv Eskimo Regular Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 227

01-21-2008, 05:05 PM	#26
bearbait Eskimo Pie Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 868	Thanks SisterMidnight, that link is very helpful. I still don't get how the USA Today quiz could have matched me with two rather out-there leftists and a republican!! Granted, it wasn't a very good quiz and I often felt I was forced to pick just one answer when I liked two or three responses . . . but still. ETA: I re-took it after reconsidering the environmental question, and now it's got me matched with Gravel and Kucinich still as 1 & 2, but now Clinton is #3 instead of McCain. Last edited by bearbait; 01-21-2008 at 05:32 PM.

01-21-2008, 06:16 PM	#28
Five Leaves Left Eskimo Regular Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 548	I think Huckabee would be a good Republican for the democrats to run against in November. He has too many things going against him for him to win because he's not a fiscal conservative by anyone's standards and not enough people want someone to impose morality on them (maybe in the primaries because they're passionate about it and not enough people vote in the primaries). It really shouldn't matter what religion a candidate is and its ashame that Huckabee has tried to make it matter by pandering to Christian groups to get their votes, all that should matter is individual rights then it doesn't matter if he's against things like homosexuality because from a political standpoint all he would see is individuals not collective groups of people. Even the founding fathers wanted freedom of religion and many of them were Christians. Shame on Huckabee for disgracing the United States, the Constitution, and Christians. Last edited by Five Leaves Left; 01-21-2008 at 06:22 PM.

01-21-2008, 06:20 PM	#29
Five Leaves Left Eskimo Regular Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 548	I had to sit through this in person....